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Home » Verbatim » 2020 » Verbatim Tuesday 3rd March, 2020

Verbatim Tuesday 3rd March, 2020

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF SEYCHELLES

Tuesday 03rd March, 2020

 The Assembly met at 09am

 National Anthem

 Moment of Reflection

 Mr Speaker in the Chair

 

 

MR SPEAKER

Bonzour tou Manm Onorab e bonzour Minis avek ou delegasyon e osi tou bann envite ki anler dan Galeri;-  bann stakeholders ki annan en rol pou li zwe with regards to sa Prozedlwa ki devan nou, ki nou pe diskite depi yer.

Bonzour osi tou dimoun bann ki a lekout e pe swiv travay Lasanble Nasyonal, mon pou zis pas en pti kou lo lalis bann Zofisye ki avek nou Lasanble ozordi.

Byensir delegasyon pe ganny lead par Minis ki responsab pour Finans Mr. Maurice Loustau-Lalanne, ki ganny akonpannyen par son Sekreter D’Eta Mr Patrick Payet, Direkter pou FIU Mr. Richard Rampal, Gouverner Labank Santral Ms Caroline Abel.  Zofisye sorti kot Biro AG Legal Draftsperson Mr Rao, Mr Stephenson ki Resident Advisor to Seychelles Government. Dr Steve Fanny, CEO Financial Service Authority, Ms May De Silva, CEO Anti-Corruption Commission. Mrs Wendy Pierre ki Registrar General, Ms. Tania Potter, Legal Advisor Ministry of Home Affairs Seychelles Police.

 E anler dan Galeri nou annan bann Zofisye ki sorti kot Financial Services Authority Mr. Randolph Samson, Mr Paul Robert, Mrs Valerie Ah-Weng, Ms Odile Vidot Ministry Of Finance.  From Anti-Corruption Commission, Ms  May-Paule Rabat.  Central Bank of Seychelles, Mr Naadir Hassan, Mrs Audrey Pothin, Mrs Sharon Uranie e from FIU Ms Debra Port Louis, Ms. Sandra Hall.  E SIFSA, Seychelles International Finance Association Ms Ina Laporte and Ms Natalia Mishicheva.  Bon ankor bonzour e welcome zot tou.

Mon ava demann Sarge pou move Mace pou nou konstitye nou dan Staz Komite.  E mon lapel bomaten avek bann Manm, annou pa antre dan bann deba lo bann diferan amannman oubyen bann pwen ki nou fer antre.  Me annou fer nou pozisyon kler lo la.  Kot nou pa ganny sa deba petet kot nou vwar en Manm pe reponn en lot Manm avek en bi ki nou kapab bouz en pti pe with regards to sa Bill.

Nou lentansyon se nou pou sey fini Anti-Money Laundering Bill ozordi e nou ava regarde si nou pou annan sans pou nou fer en Second Reading pou Beneficial Ownership Bill be si non nou ava kit sa lot Bill pou demen.

Nou pou pran nou travay kot nou arete yer sa se lo part II e mon ava donn la parol Onorab Bernard Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair. Bonzour Mr Chair, bonzour Minis avek ou delegasyon, tou bann Manm, tou dimoun ki dan Galeri e tou dimoun ki pe ekout nou dan lakour.

Mr Chair, avan ki nou proceed permet mwan fer de pti komanter;-  enn, se ki nou konsyan ki nou ankor lo Clause 3 e nou ankor annan 97 Clause devan nou pou nou fini sa Bill ozordi. E parey ou’n swete i ti ava byen si nou ti a kapab fini li.  E donk nou pou curtail en pti pe deba lo nou kote osi, akoz bokou bann ptipti lamannman, Legal Advisor Lasanble avek Legal Draftsman in deside ki zot ava   fer sa an mezir ki nou, nou pe travay isi,  zot, zot ava pe fer sa proofing. Alors i ava donn nou en pti pe lavantaz.

E dezyenmman, swivan nou travay yer lo Clause 3(10) ki’n ganny aksepte, ki nou’n fini vot lo la,  SIFSA, CEO FSA avek Manm Lasanble, Onorab Clifford Andre mon krwar in get together e zot ti a avan fer en sizesyon pou ranplas sa mo ‘‘thinking’’.  Donk, avek ou permisyon mon ava les swa Onorab Andre ki’n demann laparol oubyen CEO FSA pou fer sa propozisyon.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges. Onorab Clifford Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mersi Mr Chair, pa pou long. Zis pou nou al lo 3(10) (a), mon ti a kontan vi ki nou annan debat lo sa mo ‘’thinking’’.  Permet sa fraz pou lir koumsa;- ‘’reference to believing that any property is or represents the benefit from criminal conduct includes reference to suspect that the property was probably or probably represent such benefit.’’ Akoz i fer li vin pli kler dan plas zis mazinen.  So, ou pou bezwen sispekte.  e nou kapab osi dan sa konteks met en referans avek ‘suspect’ which is reason to believe.  So, i pa kit li ouver parey nou ti pe dir e mon krwar sa i al byen i ava al byen avek Lotorite Lendistri e avek mon menm dan sa konteks. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Yes, Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Petet as en middle ground akoz nou pa dir ‘’reasonable ground to suspect’’ i a fer plis sans. Akoz reference to reasonable to suspect i pa sa reasonable grounds i ava donn ou donn sa bout ground parey dan lezot Lalwa i annan en basis pou ou annan sa suspicion.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok, panel, comments? SS Payet.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Morning Mr Chair. Tou Manm Onorab e tou dimoun ki a lekout. Mr Chair, nou’n diskite apre propozisyon ki SIFSA in fer e parey tou lede Manm Onorab,  nou pou retir ‘’thinking to reasonable grounds’’ to ‘’suspect.’’

 

MR SPEAKER

Dakor. Bon Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair, ‘’to having reasonable grounds to suspect.’’

Dakor Mr Chair, si nou dakor avek sa nou bezwen re vot lo sa enn akoz nou’n fini vot part 1 sa. Alor eski nou kapab re vot.

 

MR SPEAKER

Non nou pa ankor fini ek part II sa i part …..

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Non, sa i part 1 sa.

 

MR SPEAKER

Non, part II.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Is it part 11? Ok, I’m sorry. Yes. Next lamannman ou next propozisyon ankor enn fwa i sorti kot SIFSA e sa se Clause 5(1).

SIFSA i annan plizyer komanter lo la ki zot a kapab vwar lo zot rapor ki mon pa pou lir li, me 2 parmi sa komanter se premyerman ler i met cash transaction, SIFSA in dir but in any event tou bann cash transaction Labank i fer oversight. So, e tou bann wire transaction Labank i fer oversight, alor akoz ki nou bezwen annan cash ek wire? Premyerman.

Dezyenmman, si Labank in any event i pe fer oversight akoz ki okenn lezot reporting entities i bezwen fer menm oversight ankor? E trwazyenmman, en pwen ki’n leve yer e sa sete nivo sa sonm ki bezwen ganny raporte.  SIFSA pe propoze ki i sorti R50 mil e i mont $10mil.  Mon krwar ki, akoz la mazorite pei se sa, sa threshold.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges. Okenn komanter? Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Speaker, mon konpran kote SIFSA pe vini ek sa komanter regarding 5(1).  Me selman mon pa konnen si lentansyon Minister la se convey lenterpretasyon ki relate avek lefe ki sa Lalwa pa pe zis deal avek bann eleman ki konsern SIFSA ozordi.  Me zot pe deal avek tou bann DNFBPs.  Savedir tou bann avoka, lezot antite.  E sa i fer ki probableman petet, malgre petet SIFSA i konpran byen l’enjeu e zot trouv zot dan en sekter kot zot, zot konpran en ti pe plis sa nivo compliance ki demande.  I pou probableman bezwen anmenn lezot antite lo menm nivo.  E se pour sa rezon mon krwar pou fer li pli kler Gouvernman oubyen mon pa konnen, the powers …… in deside enkli sa ladan.

Mwan sa ki mon ti ava dir, petet vi ki i annan en legzizans lo rapor tou sa bann tranzaksyon.  Mon pa krwar sa pe fer en disservice;- i pa pe vreman afekte sityasyon. Me i pou amenn bokou plis paper work ki zot bezwen konpran lo nivo sa bann dimoun ki bezwen raport sa bann tranzaksyon.

An sa ki konsern sa amount, mon oule siport propozisyon SIFSA, unless Minister i kapab eksplik nou akoz zot, zot pe met sa threshold R50mil?  Eski zot pe dir nou i kapab annan en kantite tranzaksyon ki lo nivo R50mil.  Petet around $3500 ki pou azoute pou fer en kantite?  Eski sa i le pwen?

Akoz dan la mazorite Lalwa zot pe servi €10mil ozordi.  So, eski sa Sesel pe raise sa threshold en pti pe.  Petet nou ti kapab demann panel pou eksplik nou sa, so nou kapab bouze vit ek sa morso kot nou ete la.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Pillay. Onorab Loze.

 

HON JOHAN LOZE

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Bonzour tou Manm koleg.  Bonzour tou dimoun a lekout.  Mr Speaker, mon zis anvi ekout ki Direkter FIU i annan pou li dir lo sa kestyon sa enn compliance la.  Akoz toultan nou fer referans avek Labank, me napa zis labank ki pe handle monies dan Sesel.  Ou annan ou depi son Bureau de Changes, ou annan ou bann lotel.  Mon anvi konnen ki FIU pe trouve li? Sa parey egzanp ilisit tranzaksyon dan larzan, i par lao $10 mil, i pli ba?  Mon zis anvi konn en pe konmsi, what’s happening vreman Sesel? Mersi Mr Speaker.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, mon pou tant pou mwan dakor avek proposal SIFSA.  Rezondet akoz mon pe dir sa, bann avoka nou gard rikord atraver nou resi. So, si nou pe dir 50mil, ki mwan osi mon krwar i ba.  Eski nou bezwen al met norm enternasyonal? Si i parey Onorab Pillay in dir, i an Ero nou a met li Ero.  Me si nou dir Dolar, $10mil mwan mon napa okenn problenm.

Prezan ki pou fer ki si en dimoun i vin kot mwan e i pe pey mwan dizon mon fees i ariv $20mil, ok?   I pe pey mwan cash, en aksidan in arive lo bato Larisi parey nou’n vwar dernyen fwa.  I vini, alors me pe reprezant sa dimoun, mon pe fer sa e i pey mwan.  Mon dir li $20mil oubyen $10mil par dimoun.  Eski nou pe dir dan en sel tranzaksyon oubyen par-. Ou konnen, nou koman bann avoka i annan dimoun.  Nou dir ok, or per charge.  Ki nou pe sarz ou en sif.

Eski nou pe dir dan son totalite.   Si nou pe pran en case pou de dimoun ki mon pe sarz en dizon $9mil, lot osi $9mil.  Eski mon bezwen raporte akoz in the whole transaction i vin $18mil?   Me selman still mon pou annan resi ki mon’n donn sa dimoun.  So, si FIU i santi i annan en anomaly oubyen i annan en issue, i pou vin kot mwan, mon pou annan mon rikord.  Eski sak fwa mon pe fer en tranzaksyon mon bezwen raport ek li FIU?

Akoz letan mon pe get sa seksyon ki mannyer in mete.  Mr Speaker, i dir ou ki poudir ‘’all reporting entities executing cash transactions or wire transfer in the amount specified in the third schedule shall retained the details.’’  I dir ou ‘’shall retain the details.’’  Sa i fine.  ‘’And report the particular, the particulars concerning transaction to the FIU.’’  So, si mon pe retain akoz mon bezwen report?

I fer mon louvraz, definitivman mon pou bezwen al anploy en lot dimoun la. Savedir the cost of mon travay pou monte akoz mon pe bezwen al anploy en dimoun pou fer sa travay.  Sa kliyan definitivman pa pou pey mwan $10mil, mon pa pou saz li $10.  Mon pou sarz li $20mil prezan, pou mwan kapab pey sa dimoun.

So, mon pe zis get en pti pe ki mannyer sa tranzaksyon ki zot pe demande anba sa seksyon i pe pase Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Andre. Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

En pti pe menm pwen Mr Chair e mon ti a kontan FSA i eksplik nou lo la. Nou ganny avoka, Real Estate Agent or whatever, tou bann reporting entities i resevwar en sonm over the threshold, whatever that threshold is e mon napa en problenm avek sa enn ki’n ganny propoze whatever.  But whatever that threshold is, ou resevwar en larzan e anba sa ou bezwen raport avek FIU.  Ou pa kapab gard sa larzan, ou met li Labank e le moman ki ou met li Labank, Labank i bezwen raport sa avek FIU.  Mon pa konpran lozik, unless ki sa ki zot pe sey fer se anpes mwan gard sa larzan e servi li as cash pou en lot tranzaksyon.  E donk pa pas atraver the banking system. Sa se sel rezon akoz ki i annan sa double reporting.  E si se sa, then swa nou bezwen aksepte.  Me is this the thinking, is this the idea?

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Bon, mon ava donn panel sa sans pou reponn. Mr Rampall.

 

DIRECTOR FIU MR RICHARD RAMPALL

Mersi Mr Chair. Bonzour tou bann Manm Onorab e bonzour tou dimoun a lekout.  Mon a esey mon mye pou mwan kapab reponn preski tou kestyon ki’n ganny demande across.  Petet pou komanse i annan sa laspe kot nou pe dir ki nou’n lower the amount to 50 thousand.  Sa i pa rapor to bann lenformasyon ki nou resevwar.

An se moman nou kolekte bann lenformasyon finansyel avek bann Bureau de Changes.  Ki arive, i pa dan Lalwa. As we speak, i pa dan Lalwa kot i preskrir ki amount ki zot bezwen report kot FIU.  Me FIU ki nou’n fer over the years, nou issue en direktiv to reporting entities pou zot report en amount of R5 thousand tranzaksyon ki zot fer avek Bureau de Changes.

Dan sa ka, ou kapab swiv bann pattern of endividi, ok? Mon ava eseye, at the same time mon pou bezwen reponn zot, me selman mon pou bezwen retain en pe keksoz osi tou.  Akoz mon pa pou kapab in the public donn tou lenformasyon, akoz nou stratezi of how we work e nou pa anvi dimoun esey rod loophole, mannyer then pou sort of like re travay zot bann keksoz ki zot pe fer pou beat the system.

So, prezan ki mon oule dir touzour ou pou vwar regardless of R5mil is very low, dimoun ki anvi fer bann tranzaksyon anvoye pou bann purpose ki kestyonab, ou pou vwar ki zot pou hop around.  Zot pou al Bureau de Changes Praslin, zot pou al Bureau de Changes dan Nor pou zot kapab meet, fer tranzaksyon al en sel destinasyon me a diferan lenstans e servi diferan reporting entities.

So, i atraver sa ki nou vwar sa bann pattern kot dan en zour ou kapab vwar en significant amount of larzan ki pe ganny anvoye tou en endividi let’s say in Madagascar e prezan for that purpose, ler ou pou al kot en Bureau de Changes let’s say anvil,  sa Bureau de Changes i pa pou vwar nanryen suspicious ek sa li, i pou egzekit ou tranzaksyon.  Me nou FIU ler nou resevwar tou sa tranzaksyon ki’n ganny fer during the day, nou vwar ki it’s quite en significant amount of larzan ki’n ganny anvoye.  E in the absence of having sa collective information, then it is useless tou sa bann tranzaksyon individually ki pe ganny fer pou en endividi for one purpose.

This is why we felt, mon konpran ki toultan nou pran legzanp in terms of internationally what is the standard?  But at the same time whatever ki nou adopte nou bezwen fer li adapte dan nou konteks Sesel osi tou.

Si nou pou pran legzanp, petet nou’n ganny lezot legzanp kot i montre $10mil.   Si nou pou pran legzanp Sid Afrik, Sid Afrik existing i 50 mil Rand e osi zot pe mazinen pou zot fer li desann even to 25mil Rand.   Sel problenm ki zot, zot pe resevwar avek sa i pli ou mwen sa platform ki i servi pou zot kapab kolekte sa bann lenformasyon.

Ler mon pe koz lo platform, petet i ava osi enportan pou bann reporting entities e pou zot Manm okouran ki avek sa nouvo Lalwa egalman ki nou pe anmennen i enn nouvo platform IT ki pou siport fonksyon FIURight?  Nou pe anvi, nou’n fini engage, nou’n fini fer peyman through Ministry of Finance pou nou ganny en platform ki apel GO AML.

Sa i pou konekte. Yer nou ti fer sa diskisyon of anrezistreman bann reporting entities, ki nou ti dir ki sa i pou ganny fer online.  I pa pou ki ou pou bezwen ranpli ou en form, ekri, anvoy kot FIU,  kot nou prezan apre nou pou engage ek zot. Sa platform, i pou en platform ki pou ganny hosted by FIU and all reporting entities pou annan en web base platform kot zot, zot pou login zot pou fer zot lanrezistreman.

Bann reporting obligations ki zot, zot pou annan pou ganny fer through sa platform. Right?   So, the conventional way of thinking ki ler i annan en tranzaksyon above 50mil ou pou bezwen al ranpli.  Pen and paper, ranpli pou anvoy kot FIU, i pa sa leka.  Ou pou zis log on lo ou sistenm, ou pou fer antre sa bann detay neseser e ou pou populate li dan system FIU.

Now, si nou annan en reporting entity ki nou anvoy sa, nou pou kapa asize behind the screen, pou nou kapab assess ki bann pattern ki nou pe vwar here in Seychelles.

Zis pou tous en pti git lo kote ki Onorab Loze ti pe demande, ki bann pattern ki FIU in vwar? Over the years nou’n regarde, plis i sa bann tranzaksyon ki pe pas atraver Bureau de Changes ki nou vwar serten endividi or group endividi ki zot pe striktir serten peyman.  Me selman zot pe go below the threshold pou zot route li dan serten lezot pei.  Sa i plizoumwen ki nou’n vwar.

Me selman nou pa satisfe avek kantite analysis ki nou’n fer over the years, e se pou sa rezon ki nou pa ankor zanmen sorti avek en rapor pou nou kapab dir the general public what are the trend of money laundering in Seychelles. Ki sekter or ki aktivite ki pe plis ganny servi by launderer, right?

Se pou sa rezon nou pe ogmant nou bann reporting obligation, parey cash threshold reporting akoz nou konnen ki kriminel la mazorite zot tranzaksyon zot pou fer li atraver cash.

So, prezan se pour sa rezon ki nou, nou anvi kolekte maximum lenformasyon pou nou kapab emerge avek bann trend e bann trend osi i ava ede pou bann future policy decision ki nou, nou pou pe pran pou nou gete mannyer nou kapab vreman lager kont money laundering isi Sesel.  Ou trouve?  So, sanmenm sa ki nou pe dir ki sa system i pou asiste nou i pou asiste nou greatly.

Mon krwar mon tous lo pour krwar nou pe regard sa amount e osi pou eksplike en pti pe osi in terms of the trend.  Just in case mon mank anything en pe spesifik zis indicate and I will be happy pou donn en leksplikasyon an plis Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal. Any other comments?  Non.  Ok.?

Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Nou ariv a lafen Part II Mr Chair. Napa okenn komanter, mon krwar ki nou go with what there is, nou gard system mannyer i ete. Donk nou’n pare pou vot lo part II.

 

MR SPEAKER

Zis avan nou pran en vote nou ava ekout Onorab Clifford Andre. Onorab.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair, mon konpran Direkter FIU an term sif, me selman mon still krwar dan sa klima kot nou ete ozordi e napa bokou keksoz ki R50mil ozordi.  So, en tranzaksyon definitivman pou otomatikman plis ki R50mil e parey Onorab Georges i dir, nou koman bann Avoka e bann Estate Agent okenn tranzaksyon ki nou fer e menm nou bann case ki nou fer ankour i par lao R50mil, bokou.

Alors mon krwar nou bezwen ogmant sa pou li vin norm enternasyonal.  Si nou dir norm enternasyonal, i apard ki Sid Afrik ki in dir nou i pe desann 20mil Rand.  Si nonm enternasyonal Eropeen ki nou pe, yer nou’n dir nou pe satisfer sa bann msye, e alors annou al ek norm enternasyonal Eropeen $10mil ou €10mil pa en problenm pou mwan.  Me mon krwar nou bezwen ogmant sa, akoz sansan nou pou vwar nou tou pti keksoz nou pou bezwen report e menm si pe dir nou annan en platform Internet, nou pou still bezwen anploy en boug pou travay lo sa platform.  Akoz tou dimoun ki vin kot nou i pey nou plis ki R50mil, mazorite. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Eski nou ava ganny en dernyen parol from the panel?  Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR  FIU MR RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair, mon konpran kot ou pe vini, me selman egalman si nou pou met li $10 mil ki pou ekivalan R150 mil apepre ou kapa mazinen in terms of like area of focus kot nou’n vwar, parey mon ti pe dir ou R5mil, mannyer nou pe vwar i annan bokou labi dan sistenm ler i annan e reporting of R5mil.  Prezan pou nou ogmant li to R150mil, zis mazinen ki kantite pli fasil nou pe fer lavi sa bann dimoun ki pe servi nou sistenm mal apropo.

So, nou pou bezwen balans sa.  Nou pou bezwen balans sa e de sa nou ava kapab konpran petet akoz 150 mil dan nou view nou panse ki i tro bokou pou ganny reported.  Ok?

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal. Bon pozisyon i reste parey napa sanzman. Yes, Onorab Afif.

 

HON AHMED AFIF

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair, mon ti a kontan zis port a latansyon panel ki dan 3rd schedule sa Bill ki devan nou, i annan item nimero 4 ki dir ki pour Bureau de Changes son limit son threshold i R5 mil.

Alor nou bezwen fer distenksyon ant sa avek sa lot R50mil ki pou items 1 avek 2. Alor mwan mon ti a sizere annou kit sa item 4 an deor nou largiman, parske li i en lot zafer. Me sa premye ek dezyenm si nou krwar poudir R50mil tro ba i devret pli o, annou konsider en keksoz pli o.  E si zot krwar 5 mil anba parske se zot ki’n propoz 5mil pou Bureau de Changes.  Me selman pou 1 ek 2 si i norm enternasyonal, mwan mon sizere nou al avek norm enternasyonal. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.

 

DIRECTOR  FIU MR RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Zis pou refer sorti mon ti donn li koman en legzanp pou sa bout Bureau de Changes, pou lo kote labank koman en reporting entity, FIU nou pa’n resevwar ditou reporting in term of lo sa laspe.  So, baze lo analysis ki nou’n fer lo Bureau de Changes nou konnen ki serten tranzaksyon osi tou i kapab pe ganny fer atraver labank.  E de sa rezon ki nou pa’n oule met li tro o in terms of the global norm, nou’n anvi met li a en nivo ki nou santi nou kapab capture ase lenformasyon.

Akoz lo kote kriminel osi tou, annou pa zanmen pran sa pozisyon pou krwar ki kriminel pa pe servi nou sistenm banker pou fer bouze larzan.  Akoz dan tou lezot pei, this is how it is e it’s been happening.  E lo kote osi tou, lo sa laspe osi tou base lo kominikasyon, diskisyon ki nou’n fer avek Lapolis in terms of bann lenvestigasyon ki zot fer,  i en amount ki zot krwar i akseptab in terms of like pou kapab konpran bann patterns of tranzaksyon ki pe deroule atraver bann labank. Ok?

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal. Bon nou pou pran en vote lo part II sa Bill ki Offence of money laundering and related offences ki konpri Clause 3 ziska 5, e ki form par sa Bill. Mon ava demann tou Manm ki an faver, as amended. Nou annan en pti amannman ki’n ganny fer.  Okenn Manm ki kont? Madanm Deputy Clerk.

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Chair. Bonzour Mr Chair.  Bonzour Minis avek delegasyon, tou bann Manm e tou bann dimoun a lekout. Mr Chair, mon’n rikord 24 Manm ki’n vot an faver e personn kont. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi. Savedir part II sa Bill in ganny aprouve as amended. As amended, in ganny aprouve par Lasanble. Onorab Bernard Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair, nou al lo part III ki Konstitisyon en nouvo Komite.  National Anti-Money Laundering and Countering the Financing of Terrorism Committee.  Sa Komite isi Sesel ki annan pli long non apard ki APDAR.  E i pou konsiste avek en seri O Zofisye Minster Finans, Attorney Zeneral, Gouverner Labank Santral, Komisyoner Lapolis, Registrar General, SRC Commissioner General, FSA CEO ek CEO Anti-Corruption Commission of Seychelles ek Director FIU.  E sa part i donn en pti pe son fonksyon, son bann atribisyon ek son bann pouvwar.

Sel komanter ki sorti kot SIFSA se lo Clause 8 ki lo Board kot SIFSA i dir ki anba Clause 8 (e) kot sa Kominote i sipoze gard tou son rikord.  Lalwa i dir i pou gard zis son official record.  SIFSA ti a prefere vwar ‘’maintain all records’’, pa zis official records.  I gard tou son rikord pour sa period letan ki anba Lalwa i 7an. That’s the suggested amendment Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges. Komanter from panel? Yes, SS Payet.

 

SS MR PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair.  Mr Chair, ler nou’n diskite, nou agree pou sa propozisyon pou gard rikord pou 7an parey Lalwa i demande.  Me selman ki nou krentif, se all records.  Ki nou dir par egzanp letan dan diskisyon i kapab annan en dokiman.  I don’t know, en post it  ouswa menm en keksoz ki kekfwa nou’n pass on to another member.  Eski si nou pou kite?  Sanmenm sa ki nou, nou propozisyon se all official record ki releve avek Komite, travay Komite, ki nou dir ki nou bezwen kite. Sanmenm sa propozisyon ki nou pe maintain sa mo ‘’official.’’

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi SS.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

I don’t have a dog in the fight, Mr Chair. Mon ok avek either.

 

MR SPEAKER

Bon si napa. Yes, Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mr Speaker, mon pe get quorum i dir 5.  I annan 9 lapwentman ki ganny fer, mon ti a sizere ki nou met quorum 7, akoz nou’n ogmant quorum e sa i serye. I en issue serye. So, si nou pe dir 5 ki zis 1 par lao lanmwatye, mwan mon sizere nou met li 7 akoz sa sif nou bezwen donn 7 pou quorum.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Henrie.

 

HON GERVAIS HENRIE

Mersi Mr Chair, e bonzour tou dimoun.  Mon ti zis anvi konn rezondet akoz ki Seychelles Intelligence Service i pa ganny enkli parmi bann dimoun ki pou asiz la sa Komite?  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair, vre kekfwa nou pa’n met li officially me selman anba Clause 6(8) the Minister i kapab donn additional Committee Members. Par egzanp nou’n vwar ki dan lapwentman Principle Secretary for Home Affairs, nou vwar ki at least for policy decision i bezwen ganny reprezante lo Komite.  So, i annan 2 ki nou’n met adisyonnel, se the Principal Secretary For Home Affairs e apre the Director for Seychelles Intelligence.  Me sa nou’n fer li anba Clause section 8.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi SS.  Lo quorum.  Eski nou mentenir quorum lo 5 oubyen nou fer li mont 7?  Onorab Georges?

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mr Chair, mon en manm ansanm avek Onorab Sebastien Pillay lo APDAR, putting the quorum to high i fatal.   Dan nou pei nou konnen ki mannyer dimoun i attend meetings.  Si nou ti pou met li pli o pou APDAR, nou pa ti pou zanmen annan en meeting.  Alor mon konpran egzakteman sa ki Onorab Andre pe demande, this is a high-powered Committee, me etandonnen ki tou sa bann dimoun i annan lezot fonksyon, e ki annan lezot legzizans lo zot letan.  I would,  err on the sign on caution e dir annou pa met li tro o akoz nou riske pa annan meeting.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mersi Mr Speaker. Mon krwar nou pei kot i ete ozordi akoz nou annan en latitid kot nou dir ki poudir si mon dan en lot travay, me selman mon oule ganny mete lo en Komite, mon oule ganny peye. Be ou’n ganny mete, peye par tax payers money pou fer en louvraz e mwan mon pou ensiste ki nou raise the bar.  Akoz mwan mon bezwen raport R50mil, ki ou, ou pa oule al meeting?  Ou bezwen al ou meeting, ou pa oule fer monte R150 mil, ou dir mon tou sord excuses in the book, me selman ou pa oule al meeting?

7 should be the norm, e alors si i dir fodre zot zwenn enn fwa tou le de mwan, napa problenm.   Zot a zwenn enn fwa tou le de mwan oubyen when the need arises. Ou konpran mwan Mr Speaker?   Se sa ki mon pe dir.  Nou bezwen serye lo sa bann travay, akoz i serye.  Mwan mon bezwen al anploy en dimoun, ou pa enterese ek mwan ou.  Bann SIFSA son bann manm bezwen al anploy en dimoun, ou pa enterese ek sa ou.  Ou dir nou pou gard li 5mil whatever 50 thousand, me selman ou pa oule al meeting?  I enposib. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Onorab De Commarmond.

 

HON CHARLES DE COMMARMOND

Mersi. Bonzour Mr Speaker, bonzour Minis ek tou ou bann delegasyon e tou Manm Onorab, tou dimoun ki a lekout.

Mr Chair, mwan mon krwar ki nou devret kit li lo 5.  5 pou fer keksoz bouz pli vit, akoz parfwa nou vwar dan plizyer Board kot dimoun pa attend e keksoz i tarde e desizyon pa ganny fer, meeting i ganny cancel.  Nou’n vwar sa dan nou Lasanble, dan nou bann Committee.  Dan nou bann Komite Manm i la, i pa vin meeting?  Prezan ou a dir mwan deor?  Mwan mon krwar mwan, annou kit li lo 5 e annou bouze ek sa akoz koumsa keksoz i ava bouze e travay ava ganny fer pli byen.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Wi Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman annou gard nou cool, annou cool, annou cool.  Nou pe rod en solisyon, annou cool.  Fodre fer kler sa NAC i pa ganny peye li e son konpozisyon i baze lo serten travay spesifik ki i bezwen fer.

So, si ou met sa quorum tro o i pou letan kot ou bezwen par egzanp plito Anti-Corruption Commission, ou bezwen petet Minister Finans,  ou bezwen plito FSA, ou bezwen plito FIU.  Ou bezwen zis sa groupman pou serten travay spesifik, pa son travay zeneral. Si ou quorum i tro o parey, Onorab Georges i dir e mon siport li 100 poursan lo la, ou pou ganny en pe difikilte. Mon konpran konsern Onorab Andre, probableman ou pe vin lo si i pou annan zis sa pti group dimoun ki pe fer en desizyon a sa moman. Ok?

So, si sa i son konsern mon pa konnen.  Eski voting lo NAC i ganny fer by en majority of members? So, then nou bezwen agree ki mannyer NAC pou set son bann prop prosedir internally, ou konpran?  So, se sa ki nou bezwen konpran.  So, zot pa ganny peye e zot annan travay spesifik e i enportan sa travay ki zot bezwen fer, sirtou an relasyon avek nou bann konsern enternasyonal ki nou annan.  Ozordi nou pe deal avek sanksyon lo nou.  So, mersi Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi.  Onorab mon a donn la parol Minister.

 

MINISTER MAURICE LOUSTAU-LALANNE

Mersi, Mr Chairman. Bonzour tou Manm. Wi, mwan mon ti pe anvi kekfwa propoze pou nou ganny en pe lavans lo letan, ki nou fer sir ki desizyon sa Komite i ganny ratifye par plis Manm lo sa Komite. Nou kapab fer sa par sirkile, prezan ok, ou kapa ganny 7 oubyen 8 manm, prezan pou ratifye.  Mon krwar kekfwa sa i en fason nou kapab al de lavan Mersi Mr Chairman.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Minis. Onorab Georges eski nou kapab pran en vot lo part 3.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Then mon pa konnen si nou pou pran sa ki Minis fek dir on board e annan en lot provizyon ki nou pou fer antre, pou dir ki quorum pou reste 5 me okenn ratifikasyon pou bezwen en pli o.

 

MR SPEAKER

Eski nou fer antre dan Bill oubyen i a vin son prosedir ki mannyer li menm li sa Komite pou travay?

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Annefe nou ti kapab mete dan 9, ‘’the quorum meeting of the Committee shall be 5 members but no decision of the Committee shall be binding unless it is ratifying by at least 7 members.’’ Nou ti a kapab dir sa.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi. Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mr Speaker, mon krwar Onorab Pillay pa’n lir Lalwa antye akoz 7(5) i dir ‘’members of the Committee shall be paid,’’ unless mon pa tro, tro konpran ki sa vedir sa –  ‘’an allowance for attending meeting as may be prescribed by regulations.’’

So, regilasyon pou preskri Minis ki pou fer sa, pou dir zot pou ganny 8mil,10mil, 20mil. Whatever letan zot attend meeting.  Me selman ki mon pe dir, se tax payer money ki pou ganny fer.  E mwan mon siport sa proposal ki Minis pe met devan, akoz i bezwen dan en Komite parey annan seriousness ki atase avek. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Minister.

 

MINISTER LOUSTAU-LALANNE

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Wi, zis pou fer resorti ki Onorab Pillay i annan rezon letan i dir ki sa Komite pa ganny peye.  Sa i le ka ozordi. Akoz parey mon’n mansyonnen, nou ti komanse an Fevriye 2019, zot rankontre tou le 2 semenn e zot in rankontre tou le 2 semenn.  Me  zot pa ankor ganny peye ditou. Wi, sa ou annan rezon osi. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Minis. SS.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair, kekfwa zis pou mansyonn avek Lasanble.  Dan 4th schedule, bann dernyen paz Lalwa i annan provizyon ki’n mete for the conduct of business and affairs of the Committee. E lo la osi dan sa 4th schedule, IV, i annan decision of the Committee to be by majority unless a level decision is reached.  So, i annan en pe bann detay mon pa konnen si annan en pe relevan, si nou pou fer sa Clause adisyonnel. Yes, schedule 4.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Wi. Mr Chair, mon’n met lo screen propozisyon Minis ki mon’n azoute avek 9(1), but no decision of the Committee shall be biding unless it is ratified by no fewer than 7 members. I kapab antre la, i kapab antre dan schedule 4, i pa enportan. Will be   guided by what the panel wants.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Mon ava ekout Mr Stephenson.

 

MR KEVIN STEPHENSON

Just for consideration, if you look at 6(8) the Minister may vary the members of the compositions of the Committee Gazette.  So, maybe there should be a consideration about maybe 2 third or something along these lines, because in case the number of the Committee increases and you have this quorum thing, maybe that’s a better approach.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you, Mr Stephenson. Mr Rao, you wanted to say something?  Non. Panel eski nou agree avek sa lamannman kot i ete la, oubyen parey Onorab Georges i dir nou met li dan schedule.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mr Chair, pandan ki panel pe koze. Propozisyon Mr Stephenson. Mr Stephenson’s proposition is instead of having 5 to have 2 third.  The only problem with that is with the current composition of 9, 2 thirds will give 6, which is an even number. That is the only drawback.  It’s a good proposition.  But I will be tempted to keep it at 5.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Letan nou pe ponder lo sa laspe, letan nou pe get quorum dan schedule 4, 8(2) b or 8(2), li menm i dir ‘’where there is no quorum at or for the continuation of meeting the Committee, for exclusion of a members under the paragraph 6, the other members present may, if they deem it expedient,  so, to do postpone the meeting, postpone the consideration of that matter until there is a quorum; or proceed to consider and decide the matter as if there was a quorum.’’

So, nou bezwen serye akoz zot annan pouvwar under schedule 4 pou zot dir, menm si napa en quorum ki ti annan en quorum, oubyen desid lo en matter as if there was a quorum.

So, i enportan ki nou serye lo sa bann bout, akoz i pe desid lavenir en dimoun, oubyen lavenir en lorganizasyon, oubyen si en lorganizasyon pou ganny anmennen Ankour. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mr Chair, dan lamannman ki nou ti pe fer avek Standing Orders, mon krwar Onorab Georges i a rapel tre byen,  nou ti come across zisteman sa issue quorum. E ou a rapel Mr Speaker, en bann keksoz ki nou ti dir, ki en desizyon ki’n ganny pran a en moman donnen en manm i kapab pe leve.  Me en desizyon i ganny pran dan Lasanble kot nou ti annan en quorum, apre nou napa en quorum a sa moman ki sa desizyon in ganny pran.  Sa desizyon pa pou ganny invalidated by the fact ki ti napa en quorum at that time.  Sa i bann inovasyon ki nou’n amann dan Standing Orders.

Onorab Andre i en manm Standing Orders Committee si mon pa tronpe, e i ti form parti sa bann diskisyon zisteman pou sanz en pti pe sa bann pratik. Mon vwar li strange ki nou oule go back to en parti autocratic pou nou fors bann quorum dan en serten fason.

So, mon krwar sa ki Onorab Georges pe propoze i en convenient middle ground pou nou. Nou ava annan desizyon ki ganny pran par en serten group dimoun, and then i ava ganny ratifye parey Minis in dir by sa majority of 7 e nou kapab move on.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok, me kote nou met sa dan lamannman?

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mwan mon krwar nou met li dan son schedule, akoz se schedule ki pe determinen ki bann fason bann meeting pou ganny conducted, e ki bann quorum eksetera pou annan.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok. Panel? I annan en propozisyon ki ganny fer par Minister e Onorab Georges in met an ekri, eski nou met li dan son Bill itself oubyen dan schedule?

 

MINISTER MAURICE LOUSTAU-LALANNE

Mersi Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, sa ki nou pe regarde lo lekran la, pou mwan i akseptab e zis pou mwan osi fer remarke ki dan sa 4th schedule, Onorab i annan rezon.  Me mon krwar sa in antre ladan letan Komite i bezwen konsider en keksoz ki plito irzan, i annan en keksoz irzan ki’n vini.  I bezwen call en meeting.  Be nou bezwen osi realize, ozordi nou kapab fer meeting virtual. Akoz si sa manm pa la, nou kapab still fer li antre dan meeting.  So, sa i bann keksoz ki a dispozisyon pou fer sir toultan nou annan en quorum olye ki nou napa en quorum. Mersi Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Minis. Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mon dernyen pwen lo sa size pou nou bouze, parey advisor in dir e SS in dir nou ki Minis i kapab ogmant manm ki lo la. Eski nou dir proportionately avek logmantasyon manm ki ganny fer.  Akoz si nou kit li 7 dizon i annan 12, en legzanp mon pe donnen.  Prezan ki fer ki nou zis lanmwatye, one over half.  So, mon krwar nou bezwen get en pti git sa balans, oubyen Minis ki nou kapab dir probableman se dan regilasyon ki ganny fer osi, ladan Minis i kapa prescribe serten keksoz ki ava an konformite avek Lalwa. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Onorab Georges nou kapab bouze?

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair, nou selon direktiv Minis nou pou gard li la, me mon krwar i ava osi pridan pou met li osi dan 4th schedule. E sa nou ava deal avek sa outside of the House.  Sa sete tou lamannman lo sa part Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges. Bon nou’n ariv en moman pou nou pran en vot lo part 3, National-Anti-Money Laundering and Countering the Financing of Terrorism Committee, ki konpri Clause 6 ziska 9 e ki form par sa Bill.  As amended, mon ava demann tou Manm ki an faver? Part 3 as amended. Okenn Manm ki kont? Madanm Deputy Clerk.

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Mon’n rikord 16 Manm ki’n vot an faver e personn kont.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Madanm Deputy Clerk, savedir part 3 in ganny approve par Lasanble. Onorab Georges nou ava bouz lo part IV.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair, part IV i annan pou fer avek konstitisyon FIU. Son Konstitisyon, son gouvernans, son lobzektif e lapwentman son Direkter ek son Depite Direkter.  Responsabilite sa de dimoun e apwentman staff, annual report ek son lannen finansyel.

Sa se sa part e dan sa morso SIFSA i annan 2 konsern ou plito 3 konsern. Enn se premyerman se anba Clause 10 (3) ki lo board, kot i dir ki ‘’FIU in the performance of its functions shall not be subject to the direction or control or influence from any other person’’ eksetera.

E konsern SIFSA, se ki FIU pa pou raport avek okenn Lotorite.  I pa pou annan nanryen par lao li. I pa pou subject to the control of anybody e SIFSA i per ki sa i kapab aport en serten labi dan fonksyonnman FIU.   E i dir ki Lanmerik se Kongre ki annan oversight lo CIA ki lekivalan FIU laba selon SIFSA.

E Intelligence Service isi Sesel, SIS i annan en konsey koman oversight.  E SIFSA in donn nou 2 legzanp dan bann lezot de pei. Moris dan son Lalwa se Direkter FIU i responsab pou disiplin avek Prezidan Larepiblik, ki pe asir lo advice son Premye Minis. E Malta FIU i en lazans Gouvernman. Donk subject to oversight lazektif. Vwala konsern SIFSA lo sa pwen.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges. Comments?  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, mon krwar konsern SIFSA se probableman si ou end up ek en sityasyon kot ou annan en rogue FIU, akoz mon krwar petet zot santi poudir i mank serten klarite as to the oversight.  Me mon kontan ki zot nonm Malta ki en fonksyon Legzekitiv.  Dans sa Lalwa i fer provizyon pou ki Minis i annan en lyen direk avek FIU e FIU osi i form par the NAC.  So, i pa tousel. FIU is not alone as oppose to FIU doing its own thing and not responding. I trouve dan en structure e i annan bann lezot Lazans ki akote li.

E lo NAC nou annan Anti-Corruption Commission, nou annan FSA, nou annan Central Bank.  So, i deza annan ase provizyon pou annan en lizye lo sa ki pe fer.  E sa ki pli enportan, se ki rol FIU in sanze from being an investigative FIU to administrative FIU.  So, si i pe fer administrasyon per se proper, then lefe ki Prezidan ki pe apwent the CEO e dan sa Lalwa Ministers is construed to mean the Minister for Finance.    Then i annan sa oversight.  So, mon krwar i pa, sa konsern i kapa ganny aleze par lefe nouvo rol, nouvo fonksyon FIU ki annan, as oppose to an investigative function. Mersi Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Panel.  Yes Mr Stephenson.

 

MR KEVIN STEPHENSON

Thank you, Mr Speaker. First, I would caution trying to compare the FIU to the CIA.  I think that’s a huge stretched in a lot of ways.  We are moving towards, just to reiterate your last comments.  Is that we are moving towards an administrative style FIU and the intent here in compliance with the International Standard as it relates to the FATF and also with the Egmont Principles which the Seychelles FIU is a member. What we are talking about as the operational independence of the FIU.

We are not talking about the administrative independence of the FIU.  In term of that the FIU can operate in terms of analyzing the reports that were received without any hindrance from outside influence.  Not necessarily that it’s a rogue institution without any administrative oversight, which there would be two in a sense that the  Director would report to the Minister in an administrative manner.  And then also you have the National, the Committee, the NAC that also would serve as kind of a strategic to make sure that the strategic direction of the FIU is moving in that direction.

In terms of the Egmont Group put together a paper about boards and the influence of boards and the pros and cons as it relates to boards, but the theory is, what I am trying to articulate is that it’s about the operational and independence of the autonomy of the FIU to be able to maintained its core functions.  And since you have an administrative FIU, it’s basically receiving reports as STR or the threshold reporting and does such analysis and disseminate those reports to competent authority and they have no law enforcement power. It’s purely intelligence purposes.

Only those dissemination that go to the ACCS or the FCIU.  I think we are just trying to protect that analysis function and dissemination function.  And I think the current statues the way it works, has this perfect balance and is in compliant with the FATF recommendation and is in compliant with  the Egmont Principles.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you. Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair, zis pou swiv sa ki Mr Stevenson fek dir, Clause 10(3) i limit sa ki nou pe koz lo la to the performance of its function under section 13. Setou.  I zis dir ki anba sa seksyon 13, i pa subject to the direction.  I pa dir ki pa subject direction generally, i dir ki zis pou perform son fonksyon anba seksyon 13, which are all administrative function.

Defann anmenn en legal action, defann en legal action.  Donn lord en reporting entity ki steps i pou pran, son staff establishment, bann keksoz koumsa.  Donk se sa rezondet ki pou sa bann rezon administrative i pa pou subject to any control. Me i pa oule dir ki i pa pou subject to direction control pou bann lezot son bann aktivite.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi.  Bon si nou napa okenn komanter nou ava bouze. Onorab Henri.

 

HON GERVAIS HENRIE

Mersi Mr Chair.  Clause 12(1),

letan mon pe get son lobzektif FIU, mon satisfe ki i dir analysis of information relevant to money laundering and terrorist financing, apre wi i ale pou dir in an effort to detect financial crime. Selman mon anvi demande si i, lefe ki napa obor money laundering and terrorist financing and other financial offences.  And other financial offences, lefe ki napa sa, eski sa i kouver dan bout ki dir in an effort to detect financial crime.

Mon pe demann sa pou la senp rezon ki dan bann lannen ki’n pase, nou’n vwar FIU souvandfwa koz lo bann keksoz parey egzanp, sa ki nou kapab apel electronic crime. Kot dimoun i transfer larzan akoz i ganny anbete lo Facebook konmela, bann keksoz koumsa, sa ki nou apel bann krim information security.

So, lefe ki nou pa pe met other financial offences, eski i kouver anba sa bout ki dir in an effort to detect financial crime. Mon zis anvi zot eksplik mwan pou mwan kapa rekonfort mwan lekor. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Panel.

 

ASSISTANT PRINCIPAL LEGAL DRAFTSPERSON  SRINIVASA RAO

Under Section 12(1) detection of financial crime is limited only to money laundering and terrorist financing activities, because it flows from first part to second part. Detect financial crimes in relation to money laundering and terrorist financing activities. It should be reading  in connection with each other.

 

HON GERVAIS HENRIE

Mr Chair, what I mean is with the evolving technology, new crimes or new opportunities will crop up in years to come.  So, I just wanted to know whether with the absence of saying, let’s say analysis of information relevant to money laundering and terrorist financing and other financial offences, with the absence of that part, other financial offences.

Are we comfortable that the FIU will still be able to detect or deal with in the eventuality of new electronic crimes coming up in the country for instance? Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Panel.

Yes, Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Yes, Mr Chair.  Zis pou retourn lo sa provizyon, i kot sa bout kot ler nou refer to money laundering terrorist financing in an effort to detect financial crime its basically, i sa bout ki pou kaptir tou bann aktivite financial crime.  Akoz par rapor to financial crime dan sa laspe ki la i bann predicate offence to money laundering.  So, any nouvo lofans ki kapab vini parey ou pe dir financial crime relating petet to virtual currency keksoz koumsa.  So, i pou ganny kaptire ki prezan in such cases i pou tonm anba sa provizyon ki la.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal. Well si napa komanter ankor lo la nou ava bouze. Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair, mon krwar nou ok ek sa bout. Napa okenn sanzman.  Next nou al lo Clause 14 ki annan pou fer avek apwentman Direkter.  CEO FIU son non i pou Direkter FIU e kestyon la se, ki mannyer sa direkter pou ganny apwente? Anba 14(1) i dir ki i pou ganny apwente par Prezidan lo rekomandasyon Selection Committee e sa se pwen ki Onorab Sebastien Pillay ti fer yer, ki nou bezwen define sa Selection Committee ek Minis.

E dezyenm pwen pandan ki nou lo la, zot a vwar ki SIFSA in propoz, anfen in donn nou en legzanp Moris. Kot se Prezidan ki apwent lo rekomandasyon Premye Minis an konsiltasyon avek Leader Lopozisyon. E lo 14(4) lo saler sa Direkter, shall be such as may be prescribed.  Lekel ki pou prescribe i zot kestyon.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, Seksyon 14 wi i fer provizyon pou sa Selection Committee e i reaparet ankor I think in, an seksyon 14(5).  Ki dir nou President shall by notice in the Gazette, appoint a Selection Committee consisting of at least 3 members to recommend the names of the suitable person for appointment as Director or Deputy Director of the FIU under this Act. However, sa seksyon pa fer provizyon to the composition of that Selection Committee.

Idealman mon ti ava krwar, mon ti ava panse poudir se the NAC would have been the ideal platform to appoint the Director of the FIU, however as Mr Rao pointed out yesterday the Director of the FIU is a member of the NAC.  But I would suppose if you are appointing a new Director of the FIU, reappointed.  

So, there was a suggestion yesterday made that perhaps we need to define a composition of the Selection Committee. Whether we have member of the regulatory body, a member of the supervisory body and then probably a member of the NAC, that might work.

So, petet mon ti a kontan demann panel pou zot sey amenn en definisyon. Akoz i les en pti pe anbigite as to the composition of that Selection Committee sa ki ou pa oule, ou pa oule ki sa i vin complex ler sa Direkter pe ganny apwente.

Mersi Mr Chair, me vi ki sa i en desizyon policy mon pa oule tro propoz en keksoz ki upset la fason ki keksoz i ganny konfigire.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Panel?  Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair, mwan letan mwan mon pe get 14(5), mon vwar i dir ki i bezwen annan omwen 3 manm ki ganny apwente par Prezidan.  So, kekfwa nou bezwen dir amongst ki kalite, me selman mwan letan mon pe gete, i donn sa diskresyon lo Prezidan pou li apwent 3 dimoun ki swa i kapab ou, whatever, oubyen Rezistrar Zeneral.  Savedir sa, oubyen bann dimoun.  Prezan ki nou kapab mete ladan posibleman, nou kapab dir pa manm ki lo NAC.

E mwan mon krwar sa i pou donn en paramet ki pli kler e ki pli kapab ganny respekte akoz mon pou kont ki manm ki lo NAC ki vin lo sa Selection Committee, akoz i pa pou fer en sans parske i deza, ou deza annan Direkter FIU ki sipoze lo la. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Petet zis mon pa anvi antre dan deba, zis pou lans en lot pti keksoz la.  Nou pe vwar sa i pe vin en pti pe souvan. Diferan Board pou ganny apwente, diferan lotorite and so on.  E nou konnen Planning Bill in retournen akoz sanmenm sa i an kestyon.

Mon konnen dan lepase osi tou, sa nosyon ki en Public Service Appointment Authority in ganny mansyonnen a plizyer fwa. Eski petet i pa ler ki nou komans mazin dan sa direksyon ki nou a ganny nou en, whether nou pou apel li en Public Service Appointment Authority oubyen Committee. Whatever, ki a kapab rantre dan bann tel apwentman, ki a kapab propoz bann non diferan Board, bann diferan Lotorite avek Prezidan.

Mon pa konnen mon pe zis met sa, akoz la nou pe koz lo en Select Committee. Eski i pou annan en Select Committee pou diferan lenstan ki pe vini dan lefitir?Yes, Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Wi Mersi. Mersi bokou Mr Chair. Mr Chair, en lot keksoz ki come up, mon pou tous sa pwen ki ou’n raise.  Se lefe ki i annan en keksoz ki mon’n vwar dan Lalwa e Onorab Georges petet i kapab gid nou akoz li i annan en vast leksperyans.   Kot nou vwar poudir ler nou koz lo apwentman by Prezidan i from en kandida. Me i annan diskisyon ki mon’n fer ek lezot dimoun, ki dir mwan ki i pa zanmen le ka kot sa Selection Committee i devret pe submit zis en candidate for appointment to the President.

Menm CAA pa devret pe submit zis en candidate for appointment.  i kapab submit, lefe se ki i devret pe submit more than one candidate for appointment.  E mon krwar nou’n toultan pran ki i devret submit just one candidate.  Be mon lenterpretasyon Lalwa as a layman mon pa krwar sa sete lentansyon. Lentansyon sete ou ganny ou trwa, kat dimoun ki the best candidate e sa lalis i ganny anvoye kot Prezidan e la li ki al servi sa diskresyon e sa prerogative egzekitiv pou li apwent sa dimoun.

Akoz ler ou pe dir mwan one candidate, savedir ou pe fer son louvraz pou li.  Ou pe dir li poudir be vwar la sel kandida ki ou kapab apwente.  So mon krwar sa osi i en keksoz ki petet, mon pa konnen si Onorab Georges i kapab weigh in lo la.  Ki nou kapab tweak en pti pe dan sa Lalwa e komans sanz si ou le sa lapros kot zis en non pou en dimoun ganny en louvraz ki ale.  I annan plizyer dimoun ki kalifye pou en louvraz.  Sa ki mwan mon enkyet se ki nou pe diskalifye kapasite en dimoun akoz petet sa non ki bezwen ale.

In annan bokou dimoun ki’n annan sa diskisyon menm bann avoka. Wi, be sanmenm sa, menm sa Selection Committee pe propoz kandida, i pa devret pe propoz.  Sa ki mon pe sey dir, i pa devret pe rekomann en kandida. Rekomandasyon i devret annan plis ki en kandida.

I annan de issue la, enn se konpozisyon sa Selection Committee, ki mon ti a kontan Minster Finans e panel i weigh in lo son konpozisyon. Mon pa oule fer en propozisyon as such akoz sa i en size Policy.

Me dezyenmman, lo wording sa Clause, pou nou fer kler ki nou convey the meaning that we are not talking about just one recommendation.  We are talking about, on recommendations basically. More than one candidate can be recommended.  Mersi Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mon krwar 14(5) osi i spesifye ki the names of the suitable persons for appointment. Ok, names, of suitable persons savedir i pa pou en kandida ki pou ganny anvoye kot Prezidan.  I pou bezwen at least 2 oubyen 3.  En pool kot Prezidan i kapab pick from. Yes Onorab.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mr Chair, mon krwar la sa ki sa Clause i pe sey dir, se ler i pe refer to persons son meaning, Onorab Georges i ava koriz mwan avek son leksperyans.  I pe mean akoz i annan Director and Deputy Director, i pe refer to persons akoz i sa 2 dimoun.

Mon krwar i pa as exquisite. Mon konpran ou largiman, petet i pa as exquisite. Mon ti a kontan i vin pli explicit dan nou bann Lalwa, ki plizyer dimoun zot non i kapab al devan dan en pool of candidate, rather than just one ki al devan. Mersi Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes, Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mersi Mr Speaker. Mr Chair, letan mon pe get sa seksyon 14, i donn nou bann kalifikasyon sa dimoun i sipoze annan.  So, mon mazinen sa Selection Committee i ganny apwente par Prezidan, li i the interviewing body, apre i pou al donn Prezidan son kandida ki li in vwar in pas sa bann requirement ki mete dan Lalwa. So, mon pa vwar issue avek sa, akoz Prezidan pa pou al fer interview li.

Interviewing Committee i dir who’s the best person for the job, baze lo sa leksperyans ki zot annan.  So, mwan mon krwar e ou’n dir ki names. Mon krwar names i kapab met 2 pou Direkter, 2 pou Deputy Director oubyen 3. I pa anpes li mete sa, akoz napa nanryen ki preclude li from putting more than one person.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Onorab Henrie.

 

HON GERVAIS HENRIE

Mersi, Mr Chair.  Mon annan de pti pwen lo Clause 14. Premyerman mon anvi konn en rezondet dan sa Clause 14 la.  Mon krwar i premye fwa ki mon vwar en antite Gouvernman, kot i annan en CEO ki ganny refer to as Director. Prezan mon pe mazinen, i napa en diferans ant a CEO and a Director?  Mon ti ava toultan mazinen CEO is higher than a Director. So, FIU petet it should have been a Director General instead of being a CEO and then refer to as a Director.

Sa i mon premye pwen.  Apre dezyenmman, mon’n tyeke me mon pa vwar, akoz i annan bann lezot antite ki i presi. Pou dir ou the CEO shall be a citizen of Seychelles.  So, pou FIU si nou pa pe met sa ladan, si nou ok ki a lavenir demen i annan en etranze ki pran sa pozisyon. Mon zis anvi demande. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair, annefe i annan trwa keksoz ki lo nou latab la;- enn ki nou pa ankor mansyonnen e i apologize, set en pwen ki SIFSA ti’n fer sorti e advertising for the post. Zot santi ki i enn sa bann post ki kekfwa nou devret konsider advertise for the post of Director.   En pti pe parey nou fer dan bann lezot.  Sa se premye ki pa pe ganny konsidere, me i kapab ganny konsidere par sa Selection Committee, si nou dakor pou reste avek sa Selection Committee.  E mon toutafe dakor ki sa Selection Committee fodre ozordi nou determinen ki mannyer i pou ganny konstitye akoz i vag.

Me i annan lot problenm ki peripheral, i pa nou problenm la ozordi.  E sa se ler ou annan en Komite ki rekomann avek Prezidan, eski sa Komite i donn Prezidan en choice ou non? Mwan mon pran pozisyon ki ler i annan en Komite ki fer interview, ki swazir. I bezwen donn en rekomandasyon ek Prezidan. Prezidan i bezwen swiv son rekomandasyon, otherwise ou pa bezwen annan en Selection Committee or a CAA or whatever.  Akoz dan bokou ka parey Onorab Afif fek montre mwan SRC, SFA Prezidan i apwente.

Alors si nou ti anvi donn Prezidan posibilite apwent sa ki anvi, nou pa met en Selection Committee.  Ou les li, i annan pouvwar.  Li i deside ki mannyer i pou fer li, atraver son PS, atraver son Secretary of State,  i ava form en Komite si i anvi.  Me li i annan sole authority pou li apwent sa ki anvi. Swa direkteman, akoz i mazin sa dimoun or i konsilte internally e i apwente.

Me le moman ki ou met en Selection Committee, se sa Selection Committee ki pou bezwen pran desizyon e non pa Prezidan, otherwise it’s pointless.  E sa Selection Committee i pran, i select en dimoun e i donn avek Prezidan e Prezidan etandonnen ki i sel dimoun ki annan pouvwar Egzekitiv dan sa pei, se li ki natirelman bezwen apwente lo rekomandasyon sa dimoun.

E mon dakor avek lenterpretasyon Onorab Pillay ki 14(5) ler i mansyonn persons se akoz i bezwen, i annan 2 dimoun ki pou ganny apwente e non pa en sel.  Donk kote sa i anmenn nou? I retourn nou lo desizyon anba Lalwa, se pa Prezidan ki pou deside, se en Selection Committee. So, sa Selection Committee i ava select either apre ki in advertise or not.  Sa se en premye desizyon ki nou bezwen pran. E dezyenmman, dezyenm desizyon ki nou bezwen pran se lekel ki pou al lo sa Selection Committee? Mon krwar se sa 2 keksoz ki devan nou ozordi.

So, si nou dakor pou annan advertising, nou ava dir anba 14(1) ‘’on the recommendation of the Selection Committee and the Minister from candidates after the post have been advertised or following the advertise of the post en keksoz koumsa.  Sa nou met li dan 14(1). Me ki mannyer nou pou deal avek 14(5). Lekel ki pou lo sa Komite? ‘’… shall appoint a Selection Committee consisting of at least 3 members or shall appoint a Selection Committee comprising x, y and z.’’  Mon krwar se sa ki nou bezwen focus lo la ozordi.  And there se panel ki pou dir nou dan zot lespri lekel ki sa bann dimoun ki pli byen plase pour interview e rekomann avek Prezidan.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges. Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair, letan nou pe get 14(1). Mon krwar nou pou bezwen tir and the Minister ladan, akoz si nou pe pran lenterpretasyon ki Onorab Georges in dir nou.  En Selection Committee letan i pou fer, i donn Prezidan e Prezidan i bezwen, so annou tir Minis. Akoz Minis pa pou lo Selection Committee.  Nou zis ekskli Minis ladan, leave it to the Selection Committee recommending to the President. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Minis.

 

MINISTER MAURICE LOUSTAU-LALANNE

Mersi Mr Chairman. Mwan mon napa problenm si ou tir mwan. (laughter) Mr Chairman, lo advertising sa i pa en konplikasyon, akoz resaman menm mon’n tann mansyonn SRC. Letan nou ti bezwen re apwent en Commissioner General, nou ti pas atraver en vacancy notice. Apre ti annan en desizyon ki ti ganny pran pou apwent Mrs Herminie. So, nou napa problenm avek sa menm si Lalwa pa spesifik lo la.

So, mon krwar nou kapab fer antre sa kestyon advertising. Lo Selection Committee i sanble mwan nou annan nou 2 propozisyon.  Enn, se ki sa Selection Committee, olye ki 3 manm.  En propozisyon se parey in ekri la, lot nou met NAC parey diskisyon ki’n annan me solman nou bezwen retir Direkter FIU. So, nou bezwen dir excluding Direkter FIU, si nou oule al dan propozisyon ki Selection Committee se NAC. Mersi Mr Chairman.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Minis.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Wi, annefe nou ti pe mazin egzakteman sa Mr Chair. Swa Selection Committee i vin NAC, less the Director of the FIU or nou swazir 3 dimoun dan NAC pou met lo selection Committee. E kekfwa sa 3 dimoun i kapab SS Finance, Governor SBS ek Commissioner General SRC par egzanp. 3 dimoun ki ava or Attorney General.  Basically, i pa enportan lekel swa nou gard whole of NAC, less the Director General ki pou mwan i fer li vin en pti pe incestuous, akoz nou pe swazir nou zwer ki pou vin travay.  Me 3 mon krwar i ava meyer e kekfwa se sa lentansyon deryer sa. E panel i kapa diriz nou lo lekel 3 ki zot krwar could be the best placed.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mr Chair, mwan parey mon dir mon tant pou dezagree avek sa propozisyon, akoz Onorab Georges in dir parey mon pe dir nou pe swazir nou zwer pou vin travay avek nou.

So, mwan mon krwar ki rezondet si mon pe ganny li kler, rezondet akoz nou’n met en selection Committee i pa’n dir NAC i bezwen annan en spesifisite avek. So, i bezwen en group dimoun ki an deor sa, ki ganny selekte pou fer rekomandasyon baze lo bann kalifikasyon ki’n ganny mete dan Lalwa pou dir avek Prezidan, ok apwent A, B, C as the Director.  Aprezan sa Director i ava vin lo NAC.

Nou pa kapab fer NAC oubyen pran 3 dimoun donn NAC pou li swazir lekel ki pou vin Director. Akoz letan mon pe get ki mannyer Lalwa in ekrir, unless mon pe mal enterpret sa ki mannyer ekri.  Be selman mon krwar si nou al rod en enterpretasyon i pou dir poudir, i ti ava spesifye ki poudir three members out of NAC. Me letan in dir Selection Committee shall be 3 members appointed by the President, i bezwen annan rezon spesifik ki in met sa.  So, mon pa krwar i bezwen sorti dan NAC, oubyen menm NAC an antye excluding the Director. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair, sa ki nou pe sey fer se ki nou pe sey adrese pou met en layer ant sa pouvwar Egzekitiv ki Prezidan i annan.  Malgre i egzers sa pouvwar an tout konfor Konstitisyon, la nou pe koz nenport Prezidan.  Me i bezwen annan en layer of decision making toultan on which civil servant i kapab antre e weigh in lo bann desizyon ki Gouvernman i pran.  E civil servants i ganny apwente baze lo zot leksperyans e zot kalifikasyon.

So, prenan sa an kont, nou etabli sa Selection Committee.  I annan en rezon akoz i bezwen bann manm NAC. Akoz manm NAC se zot ki pe deal ek sa subject matter.  I annan ki pe fer regilasyon ki annan en regulatory function. Ok?  I annan ki pou annan en supervisory function. Ok, e i annan pou annan enforcement function.  E tou sa bann dimoun i ganny trouve lo NAC, that why i pou pli pridan pou ou pran sa bann dimoun from NAC.

 Se sa ki mon krwar Onorab i bezwen apresye, akoz sa Direkter FIU pou en fonksyon avek en teknikalite. En o nivo teknikalite e ki demann en konpetans dan sa bann areas ki ava kapab zis ganny glean from bann expert.

Mon krwar propozisyon Onorab Georges i fer en sans, mon ti pe mazin met, mon krwar Attorney Zeneral i en manm sa Komite si mon pa tronpe. Mon ti pe mazin met Attorney Zeneral, Gouverner Labank Santral e lot vin SS Payet.  That would have been the ideal level pou fer li, akoz Attorney Zeneral deza i ganny apwente atraver bann rekomandasyon ki ganny fer ek Prezidan.  So, i deza annan bann layers ki apwent sa bann dimoun deza.

E zot annan lendepandans.  So, Gouverner Labank Santral i autonomous, i endepandan. SS Payet i ava reprezant the supervisory aspect of things akoz li ki reprezant Minister Finans ladan e li ki al negosye bann –  Pa SS Payet me sa reprezantan Minister Finans and then Attorney Zeneral lo nivo, akoz li ki bezwen si oule etabli the bed rock for enforcement. Li ki pou bezwen al fer prosekisyon bann case apre. Mon pa konnen si panel i dakor ek sa propozisyon. Mersi Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi.  Bon, Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair. Mon’n sey capture en pti pe sa ki bann manm in propoze e mon’n propoz 2 lamannman ki mon’n met lo screen. Premyerman avek 14(1), Nou swiv propozisyon e nou retir Minis ki soulaze akiz i pou ganny en problenm an mwens, e nou met recommendation of Selection Committee following the advertising of the post.  Apre nou al lo 14(5) kot nou donn Prezidan ‘’shall by notice in the Gazette, appoint a Selection Committee consisting of at least three members of the NAC to recommend the names of suitable persons for appointment.’’

Alor la nou annan en swa, swa swiv sa propozisyon ki’n ganny fer e deside ozordi menm lekel sa 3 dimoun or les Prezidan en pti pe parey son Bill ti anvi.  Se ki sak fwa pou annan en Direkter pou ganny apwente, Prezidan i ava swazir lekel sa 3 dimoun dan NAC ki pou ganny apwente pou vin lo sa Selection Committee. E i pa neseserman menm 3 dimoun each time ki pou advertise the post, interview, fer en rekomandasyon avek li pou li ganny apwente.

Donk enn i rigid, nou desid ozordi lekel sa 3 dimoun forever, e lot se ki nou les sa avek Prezidan pou ki sak fwa ki i apwente, li i deside lekel sa 3 manm NAC ki i pou met lo sa Selection Committee ki i pou fer the job. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges.  Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Ankor enn fwa mon pou dir annou pa anmar lanmen Prezidan, avek dir li ou bezwen swazir 3 manm dan NAC.  Si li i vwar ki poudir, Ok SS Payet pa lo la akoz i dir Senior Officers from Principal Secretary. Nou konnen dan Minister Finans i annan Principal Secretary apre i annan SS Payet.  SS Payet i lo la, i napa problenm. Oubyen sa dimoun ki SS, akoz ki mannyer Lalwa in ganny mete.             So, sa dimoun ki Principal Secretary par lefe ki i pou lo NAC, mon pa krwar i devret lo la.  Mon konsern se ki si zot in drafte, donn nou lozik dan drafte Lalwa, poudir ki poudir pou annan en Selection Committee e zot pa’n met sa issue NAC lo la.  I bezwen annan en rezondet par deryer. So, the selection Committee was something ki separe avek NAC.           E mon pa krwar nou devret anmar lanmen Prezidan, pour sa fwa si mwan mon pou dir ki pa bezwen anmar lanmen Prezidan pou dir li ou bezwen oubyen ou oblize swazir 3 dimoun dan NAC.  Be si li i vwar i annan konpetans ek en dimoun ki pa dan NAC, ki pa ganny defini dan Lalwa e i santi poudir sa dimoun i bezwen vin lo lalis Selection Committee pou donn li en pli bon apersi, oubyen ganny en view ki diferan avek sa ki NAC posibleman i annan. Mon krwar nou pa devret anmar lanmen Prezidan dan sa konteks e mon pa pou dakor ki nou met 3 members from NAC. 3 Members mon dakor, me pa from NAC.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Panel.

 

MINISTER MAURICE LOUSTAU-LALANNE

Mersi Mr Chairman, wi mon krwar sa propozisyon i akseptab, dan le sans ki ou les Prezidan apwente.  Swazir plito e apre sa Komite i fer son travay. Donk donn li tou diskresyon, mon napa problenm avek sa. Me mon krwar letan nou pe get NAC i bon fer sa refleksyon ki parmi tou sa manm ki lo la, reprezantasyon i preferab ki i annan Minister Finans, sa i kler.  I annan regilater e apre i annan en dimoun sorti kot enforcement lo komite seleksyon. Mwan si ti mwan, mon ti pou swazir sa bann dimoun, mon ti a swazir koumsa.

So, sa i zis pou listre kote kekfwa nou ti a kapab swazir sa 3 endividi dan sa 3 sekter. Mersi Mr Chairman.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Minis. Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair, nou kapab si Minis i krwar ki sa set en bon propozisyon mon krwar nou kapab al avek. Ou vwar, sa ki fodre nou fer la.  Se fodre akoz i annan en Selection Committee? Se pou anpes Prezidan annan sel pouvwar apwentman.  E si, dan en serten.  Dan en serten fason ler ou les Prezidan annan en san d’action lib lo lekel ki i pou apwente, vomye ou les li apwente.

Akoz si i anvi demen ki Dr Fanny i vin Direkter FIU, dapre ou lekel ki i pou apwente lo sa Selection Committee?  I pou apwent 3 dimoun ki i konnen pou apwent Dr Fanny, that’s exactly what he would want. E se pour anpes sa ki ou annan en Selection Committee, se pou anmar lanmen Prezidan, pa pou liber son lanmen. Otherwise ou fer parey ou’n fer avek FSA, avek SRC e ou dir Prezidan apwent sa ki anvi. There’s no issue with that.  Se li ki’n ganny elekte pou vin Sef Egzekitif.  I bezwen annan en serten pouvwar.  Me si ou anvi curtail son pouvwar par met en Selection Committee, mon krwar the best way se ki ou curtail sa Selection Committee li menm li, sansan napa okenn rezon.  Alors Minis in fer en propozisyon lo 3 dimoun, in met at least 3 here.  I kapab apwent 4, 5, 6 si i anvi, kantite ki i anvi, at least 3. Propozisyon Minis si mon konpran li byen se nou fikse 3 dimoun, enn sorti dan compliance, enn sorti dan regulatory e en lot sorti dan Minister Finans.  So, let’s go along with that, annou pran sa 3 dimoun fer zot vin Selection Committee right now.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Panel. Yes, Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mon pran commission of sa ki Onorab Georges in dir, mon dakor ki nou a spesifye. Me selman silvouple, pa from NAC. Nou ava mete SS, savedir SS pa pou ganny apwente lo NAC e mwan letan mon pe gete si nou dir lapwentman, mon pa krwar with regards to enforcement nou pran en antite.  E mwan letan mon pe gete, mon pa krwar akoz nou kapab pran en Ziz oubyen Master dan Supreme Court. So, i vini for the purpose of appointment e i diskite e apwente.  E from regilater napa problenm, nou rod en dimoun ki pa lo NAC pou ganny apwente konmela. Sa i en proposal ki mon pe donnen, me i kapab ganny diskite oubyen dir otreman. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mr Speaker, mwan mon pou dir mon dernyen mo lo sa size la. Mon pa pou kapab kontinyen argimant sa, akoz mon krwar nou’n almost kapab move forward e nou pe, mon vreman napa konmsi Onorab Georges. Mon vreman napa en lisyen dan sa lager mon. Sa ki mon anvi vwar, se ki i annan en layer of decision-making ant Prezidan zis vini annan sa pouvwar apwent nenport ki. That is the democratic approach ki nou’n pran from now on.  

So, nou vini nou apwent en NAC.  Deza NAC la, nou’n pran tou dimoun ki sipoze pli eksper dan sa domenn nou’n met ansanm.  Sa dimoun ki’n vin Gouverner Labank Santral, i pa’n vin Gouverner Labank Santral zis akoz nou’n anvi met li Gouverner.  Sa dimoun ki nou’n met li koman Attorney Zeneral, nou pa’n met li Attorney Zeneral zis akoz nou’n anvi met li Attorney Zeneral e tou le 2 sa bann group dimoun in annan en threshold ki zot in bezwen meet pou vin dan sa bann fonksyon. So, deza ou annan en element of trust ek zot.

So, pou mwan defini lekel manm NAC, pa defini lekel manm NAC i pa en problenm. Me sa ki mon konsernen avek, nou pa kapab al an deor Egzekitiv, pou nou al dan Zidisyer, pou anmenn Zidisyer pou apwent en Komite ki pou dil avek en size dan Egzekitiv. Mon krwar i enportan ki nou konpran the separation of powers and the role.  sa ki Onorab Georges in dir i korek, we want to curtail en pti pe sa pouvwar ki Prezidan i annan. Sa freehand ki i annan pou li apwent nenport ki Komite, apwent sa direkter FIU ki li i pli kontan. Sa ki nou oule, nou oule vwar serten transparans, here’s what we’re looking for.  E nou trust lefe ki nou’n apwent par egzanp the CEO of ACCS atraver en prosedir, se sa prosedir ki li in ganny apwente anba la  ki nou pe rely lo la as the litmus  test pou asire ki  the new Director of the FIU is not just somebody that the President wants, but it will be the person that is better for the job. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Non. Annou donn panel en sans i ava pran en desizyon, akoz nou pou kontinyen sa largiman. Panel? Minister?

 

MINISTER MAURICE LOUSTAU-LALANNE

Mersi Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, alor mwan mon prefere ki nou pran 5 parey in ekri la, me lo rikord nou plizoumwen mon krwar dakor, sa 3 i pou parey mon’n dir enn dan Minister Finans, enn regilater e lot law enforcement. Mon krwar si avek sa gidans i sa 3 meyer lenstitisyon pou lo Komite, mwan mon dakor avek sa propozisyon.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Minis. Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Si Minis i kapab repete Mr Speaker. Nou kapab fer en amannman vitman;-  ‘’shall appoint the Selection Committee consisting of’’ en reprezantan Minister Finans in dir?  Wi.

Vwala Mr Chair, eski sa i en reprezantan Minister Finans, en reprezantan en regulatory body e en reprezantan en Enforcement Agency Gouvernman, se sa 3 dimoun?

 

MR SPEAKER

Panel eski i akseptab?  Minister.

 

MINISTER MAURICE LOUSTAU-LALANNE

Wi Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, avan sa mo regulatory nou oule spesifye ki i AMLCFT, akoz i annan lezot regulatory body dan Gouvernman ki napa nanryen pou fer avek sa subject matter.  E menm zafer nou anvi dir avan enforcement i en Law Enforcement Agency, pou li pli spesifik.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes, Onorab Pillay?

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mr Speaker, zis petet, nou’n vwar dan en lot Lalwa kot i dir, ‘’the seniority of the level of sa representative of Ministry of Finance’’ parey Onorab Andre ti pe dir taler.  Swa en PS.  Kekfwa swa en SS.  It might be prudent to specify the level of seniority. So, you need to know which level sa dimoun pou antre lo sa komite.  So, not below the level of PS probably.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

I don’t know, Mr Chair.  Kekfwa dan plas met an AMLCFT regulatory body, since AMLCFT i pa ganny defini dan Lalwa kekfwa from a regulatory body under this Act. Since dan schedule kekfwa i define en pe, I don’t know.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Lekel SS ki kapab diriz nou? Lekel bann regulatory bodies under this Act.  Kote nou trouv zot?

 

MR SPEAKER

SS?

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

I dan Second Schedule, Supervisory Authorities.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Eski nou kapab met alors, servi menm soz. Representative of a supervisory authority under this Act?

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Kekfwa zis pou alez sa konsern ki Onorab Pillay in leve, mon believe ki bann regulatory bodies pou napa PS.  Alors nou kapab met en ‘’senior representative of the Ministry of Finance,’’ koumsa i a take care of seniority in terms of that. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Panel.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mon per ki nou pou kay lo senior, seniority. Who is senior and who is not senior? Sa problenm e nou bezwen annan en definisyon.  Mon pa krwar Mr Chair, ki Prezidan pou apwent drayver Minis.  I pou – mon krwar nou bezwen donn li en serten-. Nou bezwen trust Prezidan ki i pou apwent en dimoun sifizaman senior.

Eski nou dakor avek sa draft ki mannyer i ete lo screen? A representative of the Ministry of Finance, a representative of a Supervisory Authority other than the FIU under this Act, and a representative of the Law Enforcement Agency of the Government?

 

MR SPEAKER

Panel?  Mon vwar Minis pe nod. Minister.

 

MINISTER MAURICE LOUSTAU-LALANNE

Wi, Mr Chairman.  I ok.

 

MR SPEAKER

Bon, nou’n kapab break sa deadlock. Mon sizere nou pran en break e nou ava retournen 11.15 pou nou kontinyen avek.  Nou kapab fini? Larestan Clause i napa nanryen?

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Napa nanryen dan larestan Clause, Mr Chair. The only question is who will prescribe the salary, me sa i normal, it be as prescribed, it be by regulations. Donk, nou kapab vot, si napa okenn lezot Manm ki annan keksoz pou fer nou kapab vot anba part 1V.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Henrie.

 

HON GERVAIS HENRIE

Si nou pou vote Mr Chair, parske mon ti’n lev en issue lo zafer en Seselwa. Parski FIU i sitan enportan dan security structure of the national security structure. So, nou’n vwar lezot Lalwa ki presize ki the CEO shall be a citizen of Seychelles. Me li i pa pe fer sa referans.  So mon anvi konn pwennvi panel lo la. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Panel?

 

MINISTER MAURICE LOUSTAU-LALANNE

Mr Chairman, mon panel i divize left and right.  Alor mon a met casting vote, mon  dir met Seselwa.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Georges, ou kapab fer rantre 14(1).

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Nou a fer li antre dan 14(2), ‘’person shall not be qualified appointed’’premye kalifikasyon ‘’unless he or she is a Seychellois’’, e nou a fer menm zafer pou Deputy Director.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok dakor, panel i satisfe. Ok dakor, bon nou pou pran en vot lo part 1V lo FIU Financial Intelligence Unit ki konpri Clause 10 ziska Clause 26 e ki form par sa Bill.

Mon a demann tou Manm ki an faver?  Okenn Manm ki kont?  Madanm Deputy Clerk?

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Chair, 20 Manm in vot an faver e personn kont.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Madanm Deputy Clerk, savedir part IV in ganny aprouve par Lasanble Nasyonal. Nou ava pran en break e nou ava retournen 11.20 kot nou kontinyen lo part V. E ankor nou bann envite nou pe organize pou pran dite oubyen kafe lo lateras deor, lo nou terrace, e mon a demann bann Manm osi tou ki anvi join zot ankor pou kontinyen sa enteraksyon. Nou retournen nou repran nou travay 11. 20.

 

        (BREAK)

 

MR SPEAKER

Bon mon ti ava, avan nou kontinyen mon ti a zis rekonnet Ms Malika Jivan ki’n join nou as a member of SIFSA. Nou ava kontinyen nou travay e nou pou pran part V dan Bill, ‘’functions of FIU.’’ Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair, dan sa part parey ou fek dir nou pou regard bann fonksyon FIU. Ki mannyer FIU pou annan akse avek lenformasyon korperasyon avek bann lezot Lazans.  I en pti part i anmenn nou ziska zis 27, 28, 29 – 3 Clause.  Napa nanryen anba 27 ni anba 28 SIFSA in fer en propozisyon ki anba 28 (1) ki en peryod letan rezonnab i ganny donnen pou FIU reponn en request.                             FIU pou provide lenformasyon.  Si nou regard 28, ‘’in relation to any information they have received in accordance with its functions, the FIU is authorized to obtain from any reporting entity, any additional information that deems necessary, to properly  carry out its analysis,  and the information requested shall be provided within the time limits and in the forms specified by the FIU.’’ Sa ki SIFSA  pe dir se FIU i devret fikse sa time limit e i devret en time limit ki rezonnab. E nou’n highlight sa 28 (1) ek (2) akoz i enportan akoz sa i donn FIU Lotorite pou access lenformasyon avek okenn reporting entity, mon mazinen pou li fer sir ki sa recording entity pa pe kas Lalwa e pe donn bann lenformasyon neseser.  E FIU i annan manda anba 28(2), ou i plito annan pouvwar pou li during working hours antre dan landrwa kot sa lenformasyon i ete e annan akse avek sa lenformasyon.                 Question is ‘’within the time limits’’ i devret annan en (eleman) rezon reasonableness. Mersi Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  nou napa preferans lo time limit or reasonable time frame because in any way dan sa time limit nou ti pou exercise reasonability, pou fer sir ki sa time limit ki nou pe donnen i rezonnab pou sa party ki pe demande sa lenformasyon.  So petet pou klarite, nou konfortab pou nou retir petet sa time limit within reasonable timeframe parey i’n ganny propoze. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal. Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mr Chair, mon pou zis demann en pti kalifikasyon la en.  Mon konnen tou Lalwa letan i vin en Lalwa ki konmans marse;- par egzanp mon bann noter ek bann avoka nou deza pa ganny konsidere koman reporting entity as in now unless ki Sef Ziz i demann nou en serten lenformasyon ki nou bezwen donnen.                           Mon pe demann avek FIU la for the purpose of sa sekter nou reporting duties pou konmans letan sa Lalwa i vin anfors onwards.  So, nou pa pou kontan ganny demande en keksoz ki’n arive pandan 2an, 3an pase kot nou pa ti pe gard sa rikord posibleman mon pe dir lo sa baz.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair, anba Lalwa existing bann lawyers they are reporting entity, existing law pa sa ki nou pe propoze danm sa Bill la.              So, lobligasyon parey any reporting entity in deza fini ganny impose i deza egziste lo bann lawyers as well.  So mon en pe konfize in terms of like petet bann lobligasyon ki ou santi konman en lawyer i pa aplikab pou ou or ki ou pa ganny capture anba the existing Law.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal. Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair, mon pe go back to the comments of SIFSA.             Mon krwar SIFSA in raise en pwen vreman enportan akoz nou bezwen gete ki i pa zis SIFSA;- I mean bann Manm SIFSA ki pou bann reporting entities going forward, i pou tou sa bann DNFBPs osi ki pou ganny konsidere.  So SIFSA son pwen i relevan, par lefe ki i annan bann administrative sanction serye ki ganny enpoze anba seksyon 60 anba sa Lalwa.

Mon konpran sa ki Mr Rampal pe dir nou vizavi reasonableness, me selman lefe ler ou get sa bann sanksyon i bann sanksyon konsiderab ki kapab ganny pran kont sa bann reporting entities. La nou pe enkli bann avoka bann lezot, mon pa konnen dan in practice petet lefe ki zot abitye annan sa exchange of information oubyen mon mazinen zot pe rod lenformasyon pou zot raport avek en lot antite.

Ki bann norm petet ki’n ganny etabli?  Akoz mon krwar ou konnen ou pe demann mon en lenformasyon ou kapab pe donn mon en deadline ki pa realistik osi.  So, mon konpran the need for us to be compliant, me kwa ki petet zot santi pou vin en reasonable timeframe pou zot ki pou fer ki en antite, annou met  SIFSA en kote, annou aret mazin offshore annou mazin tou lezot antite ki pe vin reporting entities.                     Avoka, noter tou lezot ki avar annan estate agent tousala konmsi, kwa ki zot pe konsidere ki kapab en timeframe korek konmsi? Mersi Mr Speaker.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Mr Rampal

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Lo sa laspe nou okouran ki i annan nouvo requirements osi tou ki bann reporting entity pou bezwen comply with.  E as such se pour sa rezon nou’n war in fer provizyon.  Petet si mon kapab fer sa legzanp i pa anba AML law, i the BIO Law.  Ler ou pou regarde bann lakonpannyen lokal zot pou annan lobligasyon pou zot maintain lenformasyon lo beneficial owners.                                E pour lenstans koumsa, pou annan peryod letan ki zot pou gannyen pou zot anmenn sa lenformasyon.  Premyerman i en matter size ase konplike osi pou zot konpran ki nou pe capture;- ki lentansyon pou nou annan beneficial owners here in Seychelles.  So, prezan nou pou bezwen donn zot en letan pou zot kolekte sa bann lenformasyon.                                So, dan lenstans ki pou annan en request for information, nou pou bezwen kapab klerman kapab administre sa relasyon avek counterpart ki pe demann sa lenformasyon pou nou dir zot despite Lalwa i an fors la me selman nou pe donn en peryod letan nou bann the sector pou zot kapab comply avek Lalwa.        Me petet lo lot laspe ki i annan serten keksoz ki donn pli bon klarifikasyon anba sa Lalwa;- par egzanp pou let’s say en reporting entity, nou pa pou kapab ekspekte ki given en nouvo Lalwa in vini anba the existing Law ou deza annan menm lobligasyon pou ou konn dan tou CDD avek ou kliyan. Prezan now ou pou dir ki but now Lalwa fek konmanse, i pe entrodwi pou ou fer ou CDD measures and so forth ki prezan for that purpose ou bezwen en peryod letan pou ou comply avek sa.  So, i tou depan.                        Ler nou annan request again ankor ki nou pe fer pou tou sekter, i pou bezwen natir sa request osi tou.  I tou depan petet i annan keksoz ki nou pou okouran ki under the previous Law, the existing Law zot ti deza annan sa lobligasyon e zot ti deza pe comply ek Lalwa e i annan lezot lenstans osi tou ki pa neseserman en lenformasyon ki zot ti annan pou zot kit dan zot lofis par rapor to sa nouvo Lalwa.  So, nou pou bezwen assess sa pou nou exercise serten fleksibilite si mon kapab servi sa mo, kot i ava antre sa bout reasonability pou nou kapab demann lenformasyon.                               E zis pou azoute en rezon ki nou pa ti anvi enskri en timeframe spesifik again sa i plis dan lavantaz sa reporting entity.  Nou pa pou anvi let’s say koman en legzanp nou met 7 zour.  7 zour let’s say nou pe demann ou lenformasyon konplet lo ou whole portfolyo.  It’s unreasonable as oppose to nou anvi zis en register of Directors ki nou panse it can be provided within 48hours from our request. Zis pou nou exercise sa flexibility depending on the nature of bann request. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal, Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair, mon’n fer detrwa modifikasyon pou pran onboard sa ki’n fek ganny dir.  E lo screen zot ava vwar ki nou’n mete ‘’shall be provided within reasonable period and shall be specified by the FIU.’’ Ok?  Donk se FIU ki pou bezwen spesifye son letan me nou’n met sa laspe reasonable.  Akoz si nou ti zis met within a reasonable timeframe  nou pa ti pou konnen lekel ki ti pou spesifye sa reasonable timeframe e ti pou annan en problenm lo definition of reasonableness.    E apre mon’n sanz ‘’is authorized to’’ e mon’n fer li vin ‘’may’’ which is better drafting phrase dan 28(2).  si napa okenn problenm e si panel i aksepte sa bann modifikasyon, the next one i 29(2) dan sa seksyon e la kestyon se ler FIU, FIU i kapab donn lenformasyon avek en foreign counterpart agency, avek en FIU deor dan en lot pei me selman i pou bezwen obtenir en deklarasyon, en undertaking ki sa lenformasyon pou ganny servi selman pou rezon pou lekel sa foreign FIU pe rod sa lenformasyon.                          Me i annan sa dernyen fraz ki SIFSA  i trouve i al tro lwen, unless the foreign counterpart agency seeks and obtains the agreement of the FIU for the information to be used for any other purpose. SIFSA i trouve ki se pa FIU ki devret donn sa lobligasyon me sa CSP i bezwen konnen akoz sa lenformasyon pe al ganny servi oubyen akoz FIU pou al donn lotorizasyon servi en lenformasyon, pou en rezon other than sa enn ki pe ganny request. E zot in donn 2 propozisyon premyerman Ostrali.                                           E dezyenmman Malta kot i zis sa premye bout;- annefe ki egziste non pa sa dezyenm morso ki’n highlight lo screen ki donn FIU en Lotorite pou permet litilizasyon lenformasyon other than for the purpose for which it is sought.  E mon krwar SIFSA ti ava swete ki i annan en restriksyon lenformasyon ti ava ganny servi zis pou bann purposes indicated e non pa pou okenn lezot purpose. Mersi Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges. Panel? Yes, Mr Stephenson.

 

RESIDENT ADVISOR KEVIN STEPHENSON RESIDENT

Thank you Mr Speaker.  I think   to the context of the comments that came in from SIFSA, this is not related to a fishing expedition in any sense.  This is related to basically what we call third party sharing of the information.  And usually the typical practice is that say for example you have the FIU to FIU through the Egmont  group requesting information and then the FIU receives an information and the … is supervised or law enforcement wants to have access to that information, the FIU can come back to the Seychelles FIU and say, ‘’Look we would like to share this with our regulator because it’s linked to a financial institution that we have concerns about. ‘’ And the FIU director can make these determination.                                ‘’It’s ok. is for  intelligence purposes only.  Then we need to take a step back that the style of the FIU is now an administrative style FIU and is typically  these disseminations are for intelligence purposes only;- meaning they cannot be used or shall not be introduced in the court of laws, in terms of evidence that would have to be conveyed and come back through mutually the assistance request in that regard.             So, I think it’s kind of like we are talking about the third party and it’s actually talking about they’re coming back to the FIU saying, ‘’we want to share it with our anti-corruption body as intelligence purposes only. Is that ok with you?’’  Which might be a little bit different than the initial request because they were doing their own analysis.  And say ‘’look we’ve got our own analysis. This information contributes to what the ACCS or what other counterpart can be.           This is also consistent with the FATF recommendations when it talks about recommendation 40 about counterparts being able to share directly or indirectly with non-counterparts.  So in essence this is consistent with the FATF recommendations in that the FIU may indirectly share information with a regulatory body in another jurisdiction through this mechanism.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you Mr Stephenson. Onorab Georges

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mr Chair, mon napa lekspertiz ladan.  The Clause says what it says, it says that the FIU can allow information to be used for any other purpose which I think the important words.  And the CSPs are concerned that information which they hold and which they have supplied to the FIU, can without their being involved in the decision be simply used for other purposed upon the acceptance of the FIU only and not them.    I think this is the issue, Mon pa en eksper Mr Chair, be donn mon en problenm balizaz mon a dil avek me sa enn i an deor mon konpetans.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair, mon konpran ki lendistri pe demande. E mwan konman en dimoun ki kontan konnen ki mon pe dil avek, mon krwar i byen.  Akoz si par egzanp FIU, I’ll say this for the purpose of understanding of the advisor;- if the FIU gets a request from another FIU, overseas FIU or for that purpose locally, it gives the entity information requested but it is used or it is going to be transmitted to another entity,  I believe the CSP should know.  Because if you request information from me for the purpose of investigation then that’s fine.  You’re requesting for the purpose of your investigation you’re doing your investigation. But if you want to transmit it to another entity, it is proper for you to let me know.  It is a duty that needs to be done, because it is beyond what you requested it for. 

Saying that a body may come back to the FIU to say that we are going to transmit it and if they don’t and if the law doesn’t compel them to come back to you, they may not come back to you.  So this is something you’re saying that they will come back but if they are not compelled they will not come back. They may come back.  This is what I’m trying to say.  So it’s better it’s spelt out in the law and everybody is sure about what we have to do how we are going to do it. Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi onorab. Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, one of the things we have to understand is that this does not only relate to CSPs providing information, it relates to all reporting entities now that are covered under this law.          So, in a sense for us to introduce a ‘caviar’ in the law that there should be some form of threshold, in terms of what information is going to be used forward, going forward, will we be sending the right message to the people asking us the information in the first place?              Because the whole point of this whole AMLCFT is that there should be a sort of a free end uninterrupted exchange of information across different agencies, to allow for agencies to have that information, for them to either do their due diligence in relation to entities that they are dealing with. And also for them to be able to perhaps take cause of action.  But if they have to take cause of action shouldn’t that come under mutual legal assistance?  They would specifically ask that information as a means to look at it from a legal perspective and that’s when the Attorney General’s office  comes in.                        But in the case of the FIU since it is only administrative and only a custodian of the information. I don’t think we should be limiting that in any sense.  And then the thing about that when you look at the other jurisdictions we  have used, I suppose these laws in the jurisdictions they don’t exist on their own.  They exist within a legal construct whereby there are other elements to that legal construct that protects that jurisdictions as well.                

So, they have created that reputation based on other enactments that they would have made.  So, for us to zero in only on what those examples say, might be causing a disservice to what we really want to achieve;- that is have an administrative FIU that can share this information but the safeguard is, if it is  information relating to a legal matter then it goes to mutual legal assistance as it should be.  There should be a formal request form mutual legal assistance.                I don’t think it’s going to be that much of an impact, because that information should be there as well.  And I will end with this Mr Chairman, I’m not an expert in this area but I’ve tried to read as much as I can about the sanctions imposed on entities that deal with other entities and third parties.                            These sanctions are becoming more and more restrictive.  Banks are being fined a lot of money.  Other entities are being fined a lot of money.   The BVI has a schedule of where you are fined up to $7000.  So, these are serious fines for those third parties dealing with you.                  So, in a sense you have to ensure that you have in protecting your system you show that you are able to share these information.  I can give you that information but I would assume that if that entity uses that information, then that entity would have to meet the threshold in the requirements of using that information in a  legal case.

 And if they haven’t met that legal requirement then that court in that country will probably find that to be inadmissible. So, I would be released to change anything here, unless the FIU agrees that there would be changes which I don’t think they are. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you Honourable Pillay. Honourable Loze.

 

HON JOHAN LOZE

Mersi Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, not to add to the burden of the current debate but 63(1) in relation to what nou pe diskite an se moman, ‘’a law enforcement agency to which a report is disseminated by the FIU in terms of this Act shall  determined whether further investigation is required in the matter as soon as possible, and not later than 60 days from the date of receipt of the communication from the FIU.  And provides such determination to the FIU in the manner as may be specified by the FIU.’’                                          Akoz sa zafer ‘’as may be specified by the FIU’’ la?  Mon oule zis en leklersisman from FIU zot menm vi ki sa i pez lo sa deba ki nou pe go through a se moman. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Zis pour tous lo sa ki Onorab Loze pe dir, dan sa ka ki la i en pe diferan, akoz devan nou pe koz in terms of corporation with foreign counterparts, foreign FIU’s and dissemination in this regards right?  Dan sa laspe ki la i pli zou mwen en laranzman ki nou pou annan avek Law Enforcement Agency locally.  Part of requirements anba standar as well, is ki ou resevwar feedback from Law Enforcement Agencies  i ed ou in terms of like ou bann further dissemination ki ou fer.

Petet ki arive, ler ou fer en dissemination koman FIU ou fer ou lalis ou’n fer ou report e ou’n submit li kot sa law enforcement authority, prezan i enportan pou ou resevwar feedback from  the law enforcement authority, pou ou konnen in terms of like si zot osi zot pe pursue avek sa investigation?  Or otherwise zot pou donn ou en feedback of the quality of sa dissemination.

E FIU osi letan nou pou resevwar sa feedback from sa law enforcement agency nou pou pran sa lenformasyon nou pou sanitize li e nou pou bezwen pass it on to sa reporting entity.  Akoz after all en reporting entity ki start the process of analysis from by FIU, then si i annan merit pou nou anvoy kot law enforcement.  So it’s only normal koman let’s say en legzanp koman en lawyer ler ou’n anvoy en suspicious transaction, finalman ou osi ou a kapab resevwar en feedback from ou suspicious transaction ki ou’n fer.  Si i annan merit pou ou kontiny sa relasyon ki  ou, ou annan avek ou kliyan, or whether you will want to terminate, akoz i pa pe match ou profiling ki ou’n fer lo sa kliyan.  Right?

Si zis pou azoute ki lo sa ki Onorab ti pe dir osi tou, sa existing li i deza en pratik FIU.  Lafason ki nou share lenformasyon avek lezot FIUs e ki i pirman parey special advisor in dir ki Regional Advisor rather, in dir ki lenformasyon i pirman pou lentelizans;- purpose pou lentelizans.  Si ou pou regarde dan fonksyon FIU  osi tou i dir klerman si ou pou get 13(g) i dir ki i donn nou sa abilite pou nou kolabor avek bann foreign FIUs.  So given ki sa i part of nou fonksyon, ler nou pe al kot en reporting entity nou pe donn lenformasyon, zot pou bezwen okouran ki lenformasyon ki nou pe donnen, i pou satisfer enn parmi sa bann fonksyon ki nou, nou annan ki nou mandate pou nou fer anba Lalwa.                          So, par rapor pou nou share sa lenformasyon, i pou nou collaborate.  E i osi tou extend ki i dir ki nou bezwen fer sir ki nou annan en undertaking  avek sa other FIU  pou nou protez konfidansyalite sa lenformasyon ki  i pe donnen;- ki egzakteman lir parey nou’n war propozisyon SIFSA anba Lalwa Ostrali.

Ler ou regard sa 2 Clause Roman (i) and Roman (ii) it is egzakteman menm keksoz ki Ostrali in enkli dan zot Lalwa. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Onorab Georges.  Panel in fer kler.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mr Chair wi, annefe deba in exhausted.  Konsern SIFSA  se ki en foreign FIU pa abiz lo FIU Sesel, pou servi lenformasyon ki ganny donnen.  Mon krwar se sa zot konsern.  E mon krwar minimum ki SIPSA ti a kontan vwar se si FIU pou donn sa lotorizasyon sa foreign FIU pou servi sa lenformasyon pou en lot rezon, ki at least enform sa Lotorite kot lenformasyon i sorti.  At least information.  Pa rod zot konsantman me at least enform zot. Would that be a possible way out?

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab, Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Sa i existing practice of FIU, akoz ler nou provide lasistans avek lot FIU obviously nou pou dir zot sa lenformasyon ki nou pe provide ou, i lenformasyon ki sorti dan en public database.  Sa enn lenformasyon i sorti part of CDD measures  of a reporting entity.  So nou fer li kler in terms of like ki lenformasyon ki nou, nou pe donn zot ki son sours sa bann lenformasyon.  Si i klarifye ou kestyon.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Non Mr Chair.  Mon krwar Mr Rampal pa’n konpran mon, sa ki SIFSA pe rode se ki si FIU pou al donn lenformasyon an deor ou an plis ki lenformasyon mon ti pe rode ki zot enform sa CSP or sa landrwa kot sa lenformasyon i sorti.  At least dir zot nou’n donn sa lenformasyon avek sa tel dimoun. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Yes Mr Stevenson.

 

RESIDENT ADVISOR KEVIN STEPHENSON  

I’m sorry I’m a little bit confused why we think there’s an obligation to go back to the reporting entity to identify how the information is used, because if we look into the context of this you’re either responding to a request of information that you maintain or you’re going to a report entity requesting information on behalf of a foreign counterpart.  And then actually how there’s – for me it just seem strange that we would.                    We feel like they were under obligation at this stage when you’re doing analysis and sharing such analysis with a foreign counterpart that we think that there is an obligation to tell specifically how that information is going to be used by a foreign counterpart.  For me that’s a strange concept and I’m not aware of any jurisdiction that conducts business in such a manner, but maybe I’m missing the question.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Chair, the concerns which I have will be with this issue of going back to the reporting entity to the person that provided information.  The whole point  of say I’m Belgium I come to the FIU and I ask them for an information so the FIU provide an information because I’m looking for a specific purpose. Now first of all, FIU cannot disclose the purpose for which I’m asking that information, because that would be in which breach of the whole process of exchanging that information.  That’s the first part. The second part FIU gives me that information and if I understand correctly now, we are saying that FIU should go to the CSP and tell the CSP that I have been asked for information regarding such and such company by the Belgium FIU? But wouldn’t that defeat the whole purpose of countering money laundering and financing of terrorism? So, you cannot go back to the CSP or entity and tell them I got a request for information to provide information in relation to such issue. I think perhaps that that information might not have been conveyed correctly. There should be a better way to convey what the industry wants, because to me then that creates the whole there will be a leak.  So, today if you have a case and the police is gathering evidence on a particular case, does the police go around telling everybody they are gathering evidence from?  While I am getting evidence from you because I want to prosecute Mr Rampal. What would stop you from going to Mr Rampal and saying ‘’hey I’ve just got an information from the police asking information about you.’’

So we’ve got to look at this problem from different angles. And what I think the house should be reminded about that this does not only concern CSPs.  It concerns every single entity that has obligation to report.  It concerns money changer.  It concerns everyone and because it concerns all of these entities, we should ensure that the law in exchange of information is such that our counterparts -. Today this is an area that what they say we are lacking. We need to ensure that these people l don’t look at us and say we are not practicing protectionism in our regime. We want to give in information. I think we have to be very careful in which direction we have to go or  unless I misunderstood what the industry wants.  Thank you.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mr Chair, I think we’re arguing about something that does not exist.  In fact if we take away that Clause from ‘’unless’’ onwards we lose nothing,  because the information that will be supplied will be the information that the foreign FIU will seek.  And an undertaking will be ok and that they will use it for that purpose.  And if they want to use it for another purpose they will come back and will get an undertaking  to use it for that other purpose.  So we don’t actually need that ‘’unless’’ Clause at all.                        My advice will be that they remove it completely and sort out the problem;- because the first part of the Clause says ‘’allows the FIU to provide information to the Foreign counterpart agency and allows it to attain from that agency and undertaking that it would be used only for purpose A.  But if they want to use it for purpose B it will come back for a request and it will be limited to purpose B and C and etcetera. So, the problem is nonexistent in my view.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you, Onorab Georges, panel agreed to remove the last part? Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you, Mr Chairman, but then, you see I’m trying to wrap my head around what we are doing.  So I am an FIU that requested information I’ve got information today, it’s in my hands now – ok?  So, basically we’re saying for me to use that information for -.  I look at the information and then I find that company x and y were involved in particular activities which were being looked at by the UK financial crimes authority.  Right?  So, I need to use that information now to investigate this further, so I go back to the FIU and tell them I want information x again but this time I’m going to use it for going to the financial crimes authority in UK. Does that make sense? Because why would you remove that provision?

What the provision says is that I’ve got the information now so I write back to the FIU and I say Seychelles FIU ‘’Dear MR Rampal whatever I’ve got this information today, however after further investigation on our part we see that these information relates to another issue that we’re investigating, can we use that information for that other purpose? ‘’Yes.  So I’ve got that information which already sent me so I use it.   I think that’s what this ‘’unless’’ Clause tries to capture. Maybe we want to say something else

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you, Honorable Pillay, Honorable Ferrari.

 

HON JEAN-FRANCOIS FERRARI

Mr Speaker, for a simple person a simple mind like mine, even if we’re dealing with a rogue FIU,  or an FIU or foreign FIU, that is using it for a purpose other than the purpose they stated they would need the information for, we have no control over it.  we have no control over it, they will have the information and we are just, the law is just providing for at least some report back to our local FIU, that the purpose for which the information was requested have just shifted and now we are moving in a direction, and that’s all.  So the ‘’unless’’ Clause is redundant as far as I’m concerned. 

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok, let’s see the panel Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU  RICHARD RAMPAL

Thank you, Mr Chair.  Sa i se pour sa rezon mon’n go back again tou sa the powers of the FIU.  Mechanism i annan in terms of like for kolaborasyon ek for counterpart.  Petet nou bann lenkyetid kot nou pe dir if like let’s say par en legzanp we have a rogue FIU and so forth, this is why i mete ki nou bezwen annan en appropriate undertaking ki pou protekte konfidansyalite lenformasyon ki’n ganny pass on sa lenformasyon e ki annan kontrol lo sa lenformasyon ki’n resevwar.  Ou trouve?         E, menm an pratik parey nou dir i pa en keksoz otomatik kot ler en lenformasyon i ganny donnen to en lot FIU otomatikman i pran sa lenformasyon i pass it on through en law enforcement  authority or i pass it on to a regulatory body dan sa pei kot i ete.

Si – akoz premyerman ki ler en request pou lenformasyon i ganny resevwar by FIU zot pou bezwen montre nou sa eleman of kriminalite ki ganny sispekte ok?  E ler nou, nou’n satisfe avek sa de la ki nou, nou pou kolekte lenformasyon pou nou pass it on to sa FIU, pirman pou lentelizans;- purpose lentelizans.  Prezan si sa lot Lotorite, sa FIU i santi i annan en nesesite pou li pas sa lenformasyon to ekivalan FSA dan son pei, i pou bezwen retourn kot nou pou demann nou si i kapab pas sa lenformasyon kot FSA dan son pei. Or otherwise dan son premye request preliminer i pou dir nou i pe demann nou sa lenformasyon, e in the event ki i annan any outcome pozitiv si i pou kapab pran sa lenformasyon pou li pass it on to sa ekivalan FSA dan son pei.    E similarly nou osi Sesel koumsanmenm ki nou fer ler petet i annan en serten ka, ki nou’n deza travay lo la avek FSA osi tou kot zot in met en serten lasistans kot nou’n kontakte FIU lezot ziridiksyon, e nou’n mete klerman ki lenformasyon pou ganny servi pou FIU Sesel e osi si i posib pou nou kapab pas sa lenformasyon avek FSA Sesel pou zot regulatory purpose. So, se pour sa rezon ki mon pe dir existing mechanism i an plas.

E sa bout kot nou pe koz ki nou pou bezwen donn sa lenformasyon or enform sa reporting entity sa lenformasyon or enform sa reporting entity ki sa lenformasyon, pe al ganny servi pou al ganny transmet nou bezwen be careful osi lo la.  I annan sa lapse tipping-off provizyon ki nou’n mete ki deza dan nou Lalwa existing e osi tou i dan sa enn Bill, kot ki ler i annan cases, ler i annan tel ketsoz koumsa kot nou fer sir ki sa kliyan,     sa dimoun ki sa lenformasyon pe ganny pass it on to sa dimoun.

Akoz i enportan parey Onorab ti pe dir, si i annan en ka ki pe ganny investigated i totalman normal.  Ou pa pe kapab ekspekte sa lenformasyon is known to sa dimoun ki pe ganny investigated.  Then en case in fini disappear.  Ou nepli annan anything, ou trouve? Se pour sa in met tou sa bann mezir an plas pou fer sir ki lenformasyon a sa pwen inisyal ler pe ganny analize par bann FIUs personn pa pe konnen sa aktivite sa fonksyon ki pe arive.  E a sa pwen ki ler in ganny pass on to investigation,     e ou bouz to prosekisyon e i de la ki sa engagement pou vini avek sa relevant party and now they can be part of the process.

So, nou pou bezwen mazin the whole lansanm of en ka ler in konmanse ziska ler i ariv up to the pwen of a envestigasyon as well.  Nou pa anvi jeopardize kwa ki nou pe sey etre effective me selman a sak fwa ki ou annan en serten keksoz ki pe arive lenformasyon pe ganny pass on e ki  nou napa en ka. Ou trouve? Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal, Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair avan nou tou nou mor, mon krwar nou bezwen ariv lo en konklizyon. Si mon regard Clause 29, Clause 29 i kler, nou pan ni bezwen al dan functions and powers of FIU akoz li menm li sa Clause i dir ki FIU i bezwen kolabor avek bann foreign FIUs e supply information.  Perfect, personn napa okenn problenm avek sa. Clause 29(2) i dir ki si FIU isi pou supply sa lenformasyon avek en FIU deor, i pou bezwen obtain en undertaking avek sa FIU deor ki pou servi sa lenformasyon pou x.  Personn napa okenn problem avek sa.  This is the function of FIU’s.                                 Me sa ‘’unless’’ Clause i dir ki si sa lotorite deor sa FIU deor i dir avek sa FIU isi mon pa pou servi sa lenformasyon zis pou X me mon pou servi li osi pou Y FIU i donn li sa lotorite  la ki problem i arive. Akoz tou mannyer FIU pou bezwen donn . Even the ‘’unless’’ Clause says ‘’unless the counterpart agency seeks and obtains the agreement of the FIU.’’

Donk   FIU is going to have to give that thing anyway.  Donk olye les lenterpretasyon mannyer i ete kot sa foreign FIU pou dir I want to use it for X but I may use it for Y, e isi nou dir  li yes, sa ki  SIFSA pe dir se ki si ou’n anvi use it for A dir, I want to use it for A, e ou a ganny permisyon.                         Si ou anvi prezan servi li for B ou a retournen prezan ou a demann for B as well.  Me ou pa pou kapab fer li in just one go, kot ou pou demann mon oule pou a but I may use it for BThat’s the only issue.

 E si nou tir sa ‘’unless’’ Clause FIU, the local FIU still has to give the authority, but it gives it every specific time instead of once generally.  mon krwar se sa.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges.  Panel zot aksepte? Panel? Mr Rampal?

 

DIRECTOR FIU  RICHARD RAMPAL

Wi Mr Chairman i ok.

 

MR SPEAKER

Aksepte i ok. Nou a fer sa amannman, Onorab Georges?

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Ou asire Mr Chair? Mersi. Done.

 

MR SPEAKER

Okenn lezot amannman dan part V?

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Non Mr Chair nou kapab pran en vot lo part V si napa okenn lezot komanter.

 

MR SPEAKER

Bon nou pou pran en vot lo part V functions of FIU ki konpri Clause 27 ziska 29 e form par sa Bill, mon ava demann tou Manm ki an faver? As amended. part V as amended? Okenn Manm ki kont?  Madanm Deputy Clerk?

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Chair,  23 Manm in vot an faver e person kont. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Madan Deputy Clerk. Savedir part V as amended in ganny aprouve par Lasanble Nasyonal.  Bon nou pou break la pou lunch e nou pou retournen 2er pou kontinyasyon sarz komite.

Yes, Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mr Chair, mon konnen ki nou pe break so mon ti a kontan fer en pledwari avek Minister Finans dan panel ki la devan pou fer nou travay pli fasil.  Nou, nou bann Manm Lasanble e nou pe regard bann diferan komanter ki’n vini, zot ki sipoze bann eksper so al asize pandan break al get sa bann komanter akoz apre midi ler nou vini fer li pli fasil pou nou konnen kote zot stand koman regilater vizavi sa bann komanter.  Akoz nou vwar nou koman Manm Lasanble ki pe end up fer bann propozisyon.  Mersi Mr chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Pillay e se sa ki mon’n sey pase yer se sa mesaz ki mon’n sey pase yer ki nou tou nou’n sey swiv bann komanter track version ki i a kapab fasilit nou travay en pe plis. Yes, Onorab Georges?

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chairman, mon ti anvi zis demann mon leskiz mon pou absan pou en premye 15enn minit apre midi 2er, Vice-Chair osi i absan, Onorab Sebastien Pillay i ava gid nou travay pou sa premye 15 minit e apre mon ava vini.  Mon annan zis en pti apwentman Ankour 2er.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi, pou lenformasyon bann Manm Assembly Business Committee nou pe osi meet dan Speaker’s Conference Room 1er, ok? Pou nou regard en pti pe travay semenn prosenn avek son semen answit.  Bon nou pran break nou retournen 2er.

 

      (BREAK)

 

 

 

MR SPEAKER

Bonn apre midi tou Manm Onorab. Bon apre midi Minis avek ou delegasyon, e tou bann zofisye ki anler dan Gallery. E byensir bonn apre midi tou dimoun ki a lekout e ki pe kontinyen swiv nou travay isi kot Lasanble Nasyonal. Nou pou kontinyen kot nou’n kite bomaten. Savedir la nou pe al lo Part VI – Preventive Measures. E mon a donn laparol Onorab Sebastien Pillay pou gid nou.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman. So, nou ti’n ariv lo part 6 parey ou’n dir. Premyerman nou a demann en leskiz Mr Chairman, ki nou annan en laptop ki nou pe servi, me, laptop ki nou pe project the copy of the Bill i lot kote latab. So, mon ti a demann en Manm pou zis, si non si mon al lot kote pou kree en pti pe problenm Mr Speaker. Mon tann dir mon welcome. Mon tann dir mon pa vini so mon pa ni konnen la. ok pa per. Ale ok. Alright ok mon welcome mon’n ganny dir Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok, Deputy Speaker i ava asiste ou.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Deputy Speaker, Mersi Mr Chair.  So, section 30 i konmans koz lo National Risk Assessment kot nou annan en komanter ki’n ganny avanse. Nou napa gran sanzman dan section 30 to 31, unless Onorab Georges in fer bann sanzman tipografi ki ava kapab ganny relye avek Biro Attorney Zeneral e atraver Legal draftsperson Lasanble.                             Lot konsern ki’n ganny eksprimen se lo seksyon 33(1)(d). Si Onorab Afif i kapab anmenn nou lo seksyon 33(1)(d). 33(1)(d ) pou bann manm ki pe swiv zot Bill. La nou la. I koz lo implement indepent audit arrangements to test its procedures and systems relating to anti-money laundering and terrorist financing activities.                    The trade in fer en propozisyon, e la i enportan pou nou Mr Chairman,  be cognizant  of the fact that the trade has done what any trade would do;- that is to lobby, to have their changes brought to the fore.  And that’s what you expect of the trade and that’s what they should do.  E mon commend the trade for that. I know the Ministry of Finance might not be entirely too particular about this me selman that is the way the cookie crumbles.                                So, konsern ki the Trade express se changing the word “independent audit” to use the word “internal audit”. E nou ti ava demann panel to reflect on that.  So, the question is, whether we should be using the word “implement independent audit arrangements” or to “implement internal audit arrangements?  Which one is the nomenclature that should be used according to the regulators and the panel here. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Pillay. Si napa komanter mon ava refer to panel. Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair. Bon apre midi tou manm. Lo sa laspe nou’n swiv in term of standar enternasyonal ki servi independent audit me ki i pa neseserman vedir ki if sa fonksyon auditing i endepandan ki i pou neseserman have to be external. So en reporting entity i kapab fer li through striktir internal, but in so far ki sa fonksyon it remains an independent function within. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal. Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you, Mr Chair. So, then regilater i ava fer sir ki the meaning is conveyed accordingly pou bann dimoun ki bezwen servi sa Lalwa.                         We move on, we press on Mr Chairman. So, we go to section 34. As we can see napa gran sanzman section 34. So the next issue pou anmenn nou lo section 42 Mr Chair. Unless mon pa konnen si Minister i annan en keksoz ou ti le konsidere in sections between 33 to 42. Me, if not then I will go straight to the issue raised at section 32.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab en pti moman. I annan okenn Manm osi tou. Lezot Clause between 33 and 42 ki petet zot vwar zot anvi fer komanter lo la.  Annou pa les zis pou panel avek enn oubyen de Manm. Si i annan okenn lezot Clause ki nou pe sote ki nou pann war okenn rezon pou amande, me zot anvi klarifikasyon oubyen i annan propozisyon pou amannman, pa ezite.                                   Zis mon ava profite kan mon annan laparol pou mwan welcome Ms Sandra Hall, Manager External Affairs osi ki sorti kor FIU ki i devan lo panel. Ok.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Chair petet I will be remiss si mon pa mansyonn en pti komanter ki ganny trouve dan nou rapor Bills Committee, ki sorti from en reprezantasyon ki ganny fer par BAR Association I think. E sa reprezantasyon i relate avek lefe ki zot dir ki sections 31 to 35 i pou demann bokou lo bann reporting entities ki bann small outfits.                                     So, mon prezimen ki bann regulators in pran konsyans ki sa bann outfits pou bezwen vin on par  avek sa bann requirements e pou fer travay neseser pou ed sa bann outfits vin on par.  E nou ti ava apresye ki nou ganny commitments to that effect ki zot pou fer sa travay pou ed sa bann outfits vin on par. Akoz konsern ki zot in eksprimen se ki many of the reporting entities are small outfits without the capacity to implement all of the measures mentioned. So that will be a work of the regulators and the outfits.                                         So, then we go to section 42 parey mon’n previously dir. Ok, and that section Mr Chairman ti koz lo the reliance on regulated persons. Ok and according to comments made by SIFSA by the Trade. Zot comment are, the provision of the sections are too weak as they are lacking. So, they talk about the establishments of the relationship with the reliance party, which is the party ki ou pe rely ou lenformasyon lo la, and extend CDD to be conducted by reliance party.               Mr Chair.  And records keeping by the reliance party. E zot go on to further mention that vi ki zot in fer en comparative analysis,  si ou kapab, zot in fer en pti resers. Zot in dir ki ‘’good example of reliance and regulated persons may be found in UK MLR 2017 and BVI MIL Regulations which ensure the reliance arrangements deliver best result to meet AML Law requirements.’’ And in fact, ki annan en long debate pou bann Manm ki ti attend sa meeting Bills Committee regarding sa reliance on third party.                        So, basically 42 pe fer ki ou kapab rely on a regulated person including a foreign regulated person to apply customer due diligence measures in respect of regulated person’s customers or a person. So sa ki zot pe dir se ki eski zot kapab trust sa foreign regulated person pou fer sa? So eski FIU i kapab donn nou the policy ambit of proposing the amendment to the law? Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Pillay. Okenn komanter from the floor?  Si non panel?

 

MANAGER EXTERNAL AFFAIRS   FIU SANDRA HALL

Mersi pou kestyon.  Bonn apre midi tou dimoun. Dan sa context nou pe zis propoz de trwa lamannman anvi propozisyon ki’n ganny met devan par the Trade. Si nou retourn lo seksyon 42(1), zis mon anvi, sa lamannman ki nou pou anmennen se zis pou retir “regulated persons” from the third line of the Clause ki then i pou lir “Reporting entities may rely on a regulated person including a foreign regulated person to apply customer due diligence measures in respect of a customer”.                          La rezondet pou sa se ki at the end of the day sa customer i remain pou sa reporting entity. E, therefore lobligasyon primordyal i reste avek sa reporting entity to conduct, to know their customers and to conduct the required CDD measures. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Ms Hall. Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Yes, Mr Chairman just for record purposes i enposib pou nou kapab fer li antre pli tar dan nou draft track version la. Eski Ms Hall i kapab relir sa proposition for amendment ki zot in fer please?

 

MR SPEAKER

Ms Hall.

 

MANAGER EXTERNAL AFFAIRS  FIU SANDRA HALL

Mersi. The new proposal i 42 (1) should readReporting entities may rely on a regulated person including a foreign regulated person to apply customer due diligence measures in respect of a customer”. Sa final “or a person” osi i merit ganny deleted from sa sub Clause.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok. Mersi Ms Hall. Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you, Mr Chair.  Mr chair lot propozisyon pou lamannman. Lot konsern kin ganny souleve i lo section 42 (2). Regarding information on the identity of each customer to be provided immediately, ok? SIFSA i fer serten komanter swivan, ‘’Proper guidelines on information on the identity on each customer shall be provided to the sector.’’ So, kestyon ki zot demande se, does the name and address suffice for the purpose of information? So, what are you looking for in term of information? First of all.                       Secondly in paragraphs (2)(b) (c)(2)  and (4) they do not correlate. So, let’s address this one and then  we will look at the other two.  So, in the first one, what kind of information are you looking for? Does the name and address suffice for the purpose of information? Thank you, Mr Chair. Mon pa konnen si lezot Manm i annan lezot konsern.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Okenn Manm ki annan komanter lo la? Non. Si non nou a retour lo panel.

 

MANAGER EXTERNAL AFFAIRS FIU SANDRA HALL

Mersi pou ou kestyon Onorab. For the purpose of sa Clause pou provide plis clarity to the reporting sectors, nou pe propoze alors ki section 42 (2) (b) i ganny amended pou fer sa text vin en pti gin pli kler to include’’ as per section 35’’ apre ‘’business.’’               So, then nou pe propoze ki I read as follows, “information on the identity of each customer and beneficial owner and the purpose and intended nature of the business as per section 35 is provided immediately on opening of the account or commencement of the business relationship”.                            And le rezon akoz nou pe propoz sa lamannman se ki section 5 of the proposed Bill, of the Bill in fact i spesifye mezir CDD, ki en reporting entity i merit undertake for okenn customers. So, therefore, by linking sa seksyon avek the section 35 avek sa sub Clause, i fer li en pe pli kler lo ki kalite lenformasyon ki en reporting entity i merit retenir an konteks relasyon avek son customer through en regulated person. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Ms Hall. Okenn Manm i annan komanter? Non, Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair the other issue ki’n ganny raise. Se ki, e la mon ti a kontan regilater li i weigh in en pti pe lo sa size.           According to comments made paragraphs 42(2) (c) (iii) and (iv) according to the Trade does not correlate with paragraph 4 (2)(c) and requires proper re wording. So, what does paragraph 42 (2) (c) say, “reporting entity is satisfied that the regulated person shall”, apre i kontinyen dan son 42 (3) and (4). Me selman zot pe dir nou it doesn’t correlate with 42 (2) (c). Eski zot kapab weigh in lo la please. Thank you.

 

MANAGER EXTERNAL AFFAIRS FIU  SANDRA HALL

Mersi Onorab. Nou’n fer sa diskisyon e nou agree avek Trade ki vre i annan en omisyon lo sa Clause. E, therefore nou pe propoze pou review Clause (c) (iii) to read as follows, ki nou retir “established where such person is” e ranplas sa par “be”. Ki then (c) (iii) will read as “the reporting entity is satisfied that the regulated person shall be subject to requirements equivalent to those specified under this Act and in line with international standards and is supervised for compliance with those requirements in a manner equivalent to those applicable in the Republic”.

 

MR SPEAKER

Wi, en pti pe pli dousman.

 

MANAGER EXTERNAL AFFAIRS FIU SANDRA HALL

Wi nou pe propoze ki nou delete. Zis retir sa “a reporting entity” then it shall just be, “be subject to”. Ya ‘be,’ akoz le ou pou relir li anler.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok dakor. Mersi. Yes, go ahead Ms Hall.

 

MANAGER EXTERNAL AFFAIRS FIU SANDRA HALL

Wi, e pou Clause (iv) it should actually read as “the reporting entity is satisfied that the regulated person shall not”. Sa mo “not” is missing from sub Clause (iv) ki then i pou read as follows, “not be prevented by professional privileges or any other restrictions to promptly share information on the customer identification and beneficial ownership information and documentation required”.

 

MR SPEAKER

Dakor. Mersi Ms Hall. Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Chair mon not want to gloat, me selman mon kontan mon komanter avan nou break pa’n fall on deaf ears e bann dimoun in al fer en pti pe homework e nou pe bouz en pti pe pli vit.            So, then that takes us to paragraph 42(2)(c)(i) and (ii) make reference to timing immediately 3 days but do not provide a starting point to such timing. Mon recall Mr chairman sa in en konsern throughout in terms of the timing, the number of days eksetera. And perhaps we need to be clear on that or whether i annan en rezon akoz zot in met li dan sa fason. Thank you, Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Pillay. Comments from the floor? Non. Panel? Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU  RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair. Lo sa laspe ki la petet zot pou war ki sub section (i) i fer referans to immediately e anba i dir 3 days. E de separate obligasyon. Anler i ki zot pou bezwen provide lenformasyon regarding identification and verification, right? E ki nou pe dir ki espesyalman sa relasyon i overseas, i enportan ki lenformasyon i ganny resevwar imedyatman ler ou pe al provide sa services to sa endividi.                         Nou pa’n war li apropriye pou nou spesifye en time frame akoz dan sa ka ki la ou annan en kliyan ki vin kot ou i dir ou i anvi en lakonpannyen;- en legzanp, isi Sesel e i pou annan lobligasyon pou li anvoy ou sa bann lenformasyon imedyatman kot ou, avan ki ou, ou pou kapab komans ofer li servis or antre dan en relasyon avek sa endividi. So, se pou sa rezon nou kit li avek sak reporting entities pou zot deside in terms lo like kwa ki zot panse e immediately should be. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal. Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBSTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair. Mon pa tro konpran sa ki ou pe dir, akoz the concern here is that provide within 3 working days from when? From when do we should request? From receiving the information? This is what has to be cleared, because concern raise by the Trade is that, you talk about immediately on, and then 3 working days. So, is it 3 working days from somewhere or it just 3 working days? So, you got information 3 working days you give it to me. This is what we have to clarify. Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi. I pe refer to 3 working days from sa request i ganny fer. Ler sa request i ganny fer by sa reporting entity to sa foreign regulated person so, ler sa request in ganny fer by sa reporting entity ki i aplikab.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal. Onorab Pillay

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you Mr chair, avek Onorab Georges kin arive si petet i kapab osi ed nou la. But should not that be said in the law? Shouldn’t you say that in the law? I mean you leaving it hanging. So, shouldn’t you say it in the law? That provide within 3 working days from the request to the foreign regulated person. Is that what you are trying to say?

 

MR SPEAKER

Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Petet nou kapab propose en wording si i aparet koumsa  ‘’… provide within 3 working days upon request from the reporting entity.’’ Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi. Onorab Pillay. Onorab Georges. Non.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Yes. Bon apre midi Mr chair, mersi pou komans sa travay san mwan;- ‘’provide within 3 working days of the request. Or provide upon request in which case you don’t need 3 working days. Yes? Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok mersi. Onorab Georges oule Onorab Pillay i ava kontinyen? Omwen pou sa part.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Yes, mon very happy pou li kontinyen Mr Speaker, mon, mon ava fer bann amannman si li  i fer son travay.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBATIRN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman. Mersi Onorab pou your vote of confidence.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes Onorab Georges?

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Yes, Mr Chair. Having said that mon war mon annan en note lo mon dokiman having to do avek section 42. No transitional provision. Zot in koz lo la oubyen nou pou pran li la? Oubyen nou pran li pli tar?

 

MR SPEAKER

Nou lo 42.  Nou ankor lo 42.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY.

Thank you Mr Chairman. Nou pa ankor pran li akoz mon ti le fini avek sa bann komanter, akoz mon’n realize ki pou dir lekip in fer serten travay. E ler nou fini clear tou sa bann komanter ki reste then nou ava koz lo sa enn ki pli gro e sa se whether or not nou pou annan en transitional provision pou ki bann entities  i kapab tranzisyon onto the new regime ki en konsern ki Trade in leve.

So ava sa mon ava kontinyen avek Section 42 (3) (b) (iii) (A),  ki according to the Trade the section is not clear as it seems repetitive.  Mon prezimen zot konnen ki zot pe dir akoz se zot ki bezwen enplimant servi sa Lalwa dan zot aktivite.

So  if we could get the panel to clarify whether this is repetitive or whether this is necessary, and then we can go on to the transitional provisions.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok.  Panel?  Ms Hall.

 

MANAGER EXTERNAL AFFAIRS FIU SANDRA HALL

Mersi Onorab.  Sa seksyon anba 42(3)(b)(3) (a) it’s to do avek i annan pou fer avek definisyon a foreign regulated person.  Nou pe prezimen ki sa konsern from the Trade stands from lefe ki anba 42 (2) (c) (iii) i annan en, en Clause ki ase similar me selman nou anvi refer resorti ki sa Clause anba  42 (2) (c) (iii) i pe spesifye ki sa reporting entity i bezwen satisfer son lekor ki sa regulated person ki li i pe rely lo la, i dan en ziridiksyon ki subject to ki anliny avek bann standar enternasyonal.  E ki sa regulated person pe ganny supervised for the purpose of AML CFT compliance. 

Whereas sa Clause anba 42 (3) (b) (iii) (A) it’s specifying definisyon for a foreign regulated person.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Ms Hall.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you Mr Chair.  That is the meaning of the Clause. I don’t have any issue avek.  I don’t know if other Members has any other issues.  Which brings us to what is lacking in section 42 as this will create the need for the industry to transition onto this new approach. 

And the concern raised by the industry, was that there is an absence of a transitional Clause.  And whether there is a reason why there is no transitional Clause or which approach is to be taken in relation to transitioning onto the requirements of this, of this part of the Act.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel?  Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Rezon ki nou pa’n enkli any transitional period pou sa Part ki la i senpleman akoz i deza  en existing lobligasyon anba the anba AML Act e nou pa’n war le nesesite.  I zis en kontinyasyon of lobligasyon ki egziste anba the current AML Law. 

So nou pa’n war nesesite pou nou extend en, en peryod letan pou comply avek sa provizyon.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mersi panel pou sa leksplikasyon.  I annan en, en propozisyon ki sorti kot SIFSA pou en nouvo Clause 101 which is i annan 100 Seksyon pou le moman zot le azout en lot which will be transitional provisions.

Ki pa pou selman deal avek 42 me ki pou deal avek 32, 33, 35, 36, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 46, 47.  E avek zot in donn zot leksplikasyon zot napa sa personn napa sa zis mon malerezman.  Mon ava fer sirkile because it’s a proposed 101 e i pa annan pou fer zis avek 42.  I annan pou fer avek tou sa bann seksyon ki mon’n mansyonnen so perhaps dan break ozordi panel a kapab regarde e ler nou ariv a lafen nou a kapab retourn lo sa issue of transitional provisions. 

 

MR SPEAKER

Dakor mersi Onorab Georges.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi  Mr Chair.  Cognizant of the fact ki i annan  sa request to have a transitional provision.  I enportan pou panel klarifye avek nou en keksoz, en keksoz mon ti a kontan demann zot en kestyon lo la.

Eski sa size grandfathering Clauses an se ki konsern bann AML Acts oubyen bann transitional provisions ki donn en serten dele letan for compliance, is that something that the international community is you know relaxed about? 

Or is that something that they’re very too keen on?  Given that there are exigencies to comply?  How? Because on what I’ve read in terms of grand fathering Clauses that relates to transitional provisions that allow more time for compliance.  There’s been a concern that this is something that they do not want to rely see in, in AML Legislation going forward. 

If you can clarify whether the case is or not I’ll be very happy and you also explain to the Members as well.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Panel?

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Onorab. Lo nou kote parey ankor nou pe maintain nou pozisyon kot sa bann Clauses, menm parey kot Onorab Georges in dir i annan seksyon 33, 34 ki bann existing lobligasyon anba Lalwa. In war li en pe difisil pou ki rezon ki nou bezwen extend en transition period for that.                                 E zis in line avek sa ki Onorab i dir osi tou, i kapab vin en pwen konsern kot ler nou pe ganny bann assessment by nou bann foreign bodies kot zot pe war nou, nou pe donn en tranzisyon pou en lobligasyon ki deza dan Lalwa. So sa ki la i pou vin en laspe of konsern.                 Nou kapab konpran ki lenstans kot si i annan nouvo provizyon kot nou kapab antre, nou antre dan diskisyon avek zot pou nou montre zot ki sa i en nouvo lobligasyon e obviously nou pou bezwen donn en serten peryod letan pou nou kapab montre some effectiveness.                              Akoz sa bann assessment i get de laspe;- si ou annan sa kad legal pou kapab regulate e osi ki mannyer ou pe efektivman enplimant Lalwa.  So nou pou bezwen ganny asses lo enplimantasyon. So dan sa ka kot i annan nouvo provizyon nouvo lobligasyon nou pou bezwen extend en peryod letan met tou existing provizyon ki annan under the current law ki pe ganny reflekte dan sa nouvo, dan sa Bill, nou pa vwar sa i en nesesite pou donn en peryod letan pou kapab comply avek, avek en requirement.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal. Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair mon pa anvi blindside personn alor pandan ki nou lo la les ma zis eksplik the thinking of SIFSA. Si nou regard 42 (1) nou ava vwar ki reporting entities may rely on regulated person including a foreign regulated person to apply. Ok, e se sa zot konsern.          Here is what they say, while some anyway, sa ki zot pe demande se every reporting entity shall comply with the following provision of part 6 of this Act which include 42 by 30th September 2021. Ok, and here is their thinking, while some may feel that the requested timeline is too long we would like to point out the circumstances in which such period of time will be necessary. First and foremost, we are proposing this date to align it with the transition provisions and the BO Bill ki nou pou vwar demen.              Secondly section 42 of the AML Bill refers to reliance on foreign regulated persons to perform customer due diligence. The FCA can confirm this from previous statistic shared with them, that the majority of the IBC business has been introduced through professional intermediaries. Considered as foreign regulated persons. In view that the AML Bill is making provision for additional criteria to be respected by reporting entities, CSPs will lead time to one;- engage with these PIs to inform them of new criteria, review all the existing agreements, test such new arrangement, etcetera, eksetera  and hence there CDD measures eksetera, eksetera.                 So, for those reasons they are asking for a transition before they can comply with these new criteria under the Act. Me unconscious of the fact that you don’t have that and I do, but this is basically briefly the thinking behind their request.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges. Panel? Comments Panel? Yes, SS Payet.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Chair kekfwa zis pou, mon konnen ti annan sa transitional period dan BO ki demen letan nou pou diskite ki nou pou rekomande, ki nou pou redwir li dan plas Septanm pou en pe pli ba. E sa se akoz dan nou exchange of information OECD, rapor ki nou ti al diskite last week nou partially compliant overall rating e BO i partially compliant.             E akoz nou en financial sector country akoz sa definisyon partially compliant, EU pou kontinyen kit nou lo Black List si nou pa koriz li pou ariv lo largely compliant. E ki nou’n agree avek OECD ki at list within one year nou pou demann en re rating e ki nou espekte avan Oktob pou nou kapab demann en request for rerating.       Otomatikman letan nou demann sa request OECD li i bezwen vin fer zot assessment Sesel. So, definitivman sa transitional period ki nou’n mete septanm 2021 nou pou bezwen revwar li demen letan nou vwar BO Bill.                Me selman i will pass on kekfwa pou nou eksplik en pe bann lezot new requirements si nou pou kit transitional period ouswa nou ava revwar ouswa nou ava rediskite during the break nou a kapab donn en propozisyon letan nou retournen dan break.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi SS. Onorab Pillay nou kontinyen.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair. So, that brings us to then next comment unless nou annan lezot komanter. To section 47 (2) (b). Mr Chair mon krwar bann dimoun lo panel pe fer mon sir zot annan en komanter zot le fer.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ou le fer en komanter? Non. Yes, Ms Hall.

 

MANAGER EXTERNAL AFFAIRS  FIU SANDRA HALL

Mersi Mr Chair. Eskiz nou pou sa me selman anvi ki nou’n fer amannman avek, nou’n propoz amannman avek detrwa seksyon sub Clauses pli boner. An rezilta sa nou pou bezwen fer a minor amendment avek section 42(4), zis pou fer sir ki tou keksoz ties in together e sa se ki nou anvi.                            Then nou pe propoze ki the new section 4 reads as follows,where a reporting entity relies on a regulated person to apply customer due diligence measures in respect of its customer the responsibility to apply customer due diligence measures remains with the reporting entity”. So, ki nou pe propoze pou tire pou retire dan sa Clause se “regulated persons”. So, it should not be “a regulated person’s customer” but “the reporting entities customer” so, it’s ‘customer. ‘Being the reporting entities customer.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

(Off-Mic)

 

MANAGER EXTERNAL AFFAIRS  FIU SANDRA HALL

Sorry, le rezon akoz nou pe propoz sa se ki at the end of the day sa customer i reste pou sa reporting entity. Ok, as long ki i kler.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  So, we go back to section 47(2)(b) is the other area where we have a point of concern. E la i annan en propozisyon, mon krwar panel in ganny sans swiv. Pou nou add the word with customer ‘’any transaction or correspondence with customer’’ ki SIFSA pre propoze. Is that agreeable to the authorities since they know. I think that might be an issue but selman I,  allow the panel to weigh in avan ki mon fer mon komanter. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Panel. Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair. Zis pou nou fer en pti azitasyon lo sa proposal nou, nou pe rekomande ki i ganny read koman ‘’of any transaction or correspondence related to the customer.’’ Mersi

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok, dakor Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair. Just an pasan mon krwar ki zot in note komanter, you have noted the comment of the Trade that the overall sub section is poorly drafted. Where good examples are … so that’s, I leave that (to), for interpretation.                         And then we reach the next section which is 47(3) and as the provision for keeping records. And, according to them none of the AML laws of any country requires to give electronic records for 30years. So, can you clarify as to why? I suppose from an ACCS perspective it makes sense because predicate crimes could have happened a long time in the past and if you want to takle these crimes you have to go back in the past to get the records, so that’s why they want the records to be kept for longer so, but I’ll allow the panel to weigh in on it Mr Chairman.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Comments from the floor?  Non, Panel?  SS Payet.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair, sa provizyon mon konnen kekfwa the Trade pe dir i pa en practice bann lezot pei, me selman letan ou regarde en pe dan konteks Sesel, espesyalman parey Onorab in mansyonnen lo bann anticorruption cases ki nou annan.                                        I en pe challenging pou pou ACCS ganny dokiman e sanmenm sa ki nou pe propose sa provizyon;- digital copy ki nou konnen bann lezot kopi  i 7 years, be selman for digital copy ki at least electronically i kapa available.  Akoz i en pe challenge pou ACCS letan i pe investigate en case, pou li ganny;- par egzanp existingly bann case ki i annan pou li ganny kopi en pe bann dokiman.                                       Be propozisyon ki nou ti pe mete se mostly financial records ki relevan avek bann labank for financial institution. Par egzanp ozordi nou konnen dan context Central Bank ou pou ale ou pou kapab ganny kopi dokiman menm si i annan plis ki 30an. So, ou kapab annan dokiman pou kapab make available. So, propozisyon ki nou ti pe mete se at least ki any lenvestigasyon ki anti-corruption i fer i kapab ganny kopi electronically sa bann dokiman. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi SS. Onorab Pillay. Non? Yes Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mon konpran parfetman nide. 30 years is a long time Mr Speaker, menm electronically. Pou ou kapab gard li en volim dokiman ki ou’n travay lo la pou 30an even electronically, i en kantite.  E ou pou bezwen maintain sa dan en server oubyen dan en landrwa 30 years a long time.  30years ago i was, mon labarb ti nwar mon seve ti plen lo mon latet. And 30years is a long time.              E mon demann mwan, what the cost implication is? I understand. Mon konpran nide e parey nou ti dir yer nou bezwen koman en pei fer everything that we can pou montre sa bann dimoun deor ki nou earnest.  Me 30years is still a long time. E ki mannyer ou pou ensure compliance over 30 years? That’s the other issue. I byen pou nou dir 30 years but, how are we going to be able to monitor and police it for 30 years?

 

MR SPEAKER

Teknolozi osi mon krwar pou’n avanse pou’n kit nou deryer. ki metod storage? Ki mannyer nou pou kapab recoup apre. Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair I don’t know what the issue because practicality of keeping of records for 30 years might be a bit of an issue, I don’t know whether, I don’t want to fall fowl  of the ACCS because I know probably that something, that’s the prospective of the issue that they face today.  And  sa issue  will be a policy issue for them to decide on, and I would not want to weigh in on that. So, I was just continuing with the work. So, I don’t know whether we move forward or we propose an amendment.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok, let’s see the panel.  Anyway, nou’n atann SS Payet. SS ou mentenir? Ale.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Wi, Mr Chair nou anvi maintain sa provizyon.

 

MR SPEAKER

Dakor. Bon nou kontinyen Onorab.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you Mr chairman. Mr Chairman we now come to section 49(5). Mon pou al an angle for the benefit of our visitor in the House who is very conversant with AVTF recommendation. So, it important that he weighs in on this issue.           There an issue of beneficial owner threshold for Trusts and Foundations ki nou konnen will come into consequential amendment in the  both respective laws.                                So I think you’ve seen the comments made by SIFSA made in relation to 49(5) which relates to currently Seychelles adopted 25percent. if Seychelles regarded as non-compliant with international norms regards to threshold and beneficial interest? Their answer is no currently.  And majority of other countries add up to 25 percent ownership and or control and FATF recommends 25. Why and what is the rationale  for Seychelles to add up 10 percent?          SIFSA strongly object to the proposed threshold. So, there’s an objection from the trade to the proposed threshold. If you will allow me Mr Chairman I would like to make one more comment which is my personal comment on this issue.      Since I’ve got the mic.  I know one of the issues Seychelles is facing is that beneficial ownership information is not reliably available, due to lack of supervision and low levels of disclosure compliance. And this is causing us to be partially compliant to FATF standards which has recently caused Mauritius if I’m not mistaken to go on the FATF Grey List. In relation to beneficial ownership.                So I think 10 percent going down might be important because you might own interest in several companies, in several Trusts that amount to a lot as well. So that’s one other thing that we need to consider. So I don’t know what the panel has to say Mr Chairman but that is the proposal form SIFSA and, my comments are that when it comes to beneficial ownership we need to ensure we have the information available. Thank you.              

 

 

MR SPEAKER

SS Payet.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair. Mon konnen kekfwa ki SIFSA mon krwar dan diskisyon ki nou’n gannyen avek zot letan nou ti pe fer konsiltasyon. Premyerman letan nou ti al avek initial Bill mon konnen kekfwa mon pe koz lo BO. Mon konnen BO ki en diskisyon pou nou gannyen demen. Me selman dan premye propozisyon nou, nou ti pe dir beneficial Ownership ti pou napa en threshold. Me selman zot, zot ti propoze ki i annan en 25 percent.  E usually dan bann prosedir ou bezwen fer en national risk assessment pou ou kapab met en threshold. En risk analysis pou kapab met en threshold e Sesel pa ankor fer.                E mazorite bann pei ki nou vwar ki menm si zot annan sa 25 percent rekomandasyon 25, mazorite pei par egzanp bann legzanp ki SIFSA in donnen Hong Kong, UK zot partially compliant lo rekomandasyon 25. E nou nou’n fer analysis baze lo – I annan bann pei ki zot pa ankor ganny assessment by FATF so, nou pa kapab pran legzanp lo zot. Bokou assessment ki nou’n fer. En pei ki nou konnen ki an compliant, largely compliant se Bahamas ki li in fini fer son assessment li i lo sa 10 percent threshold.                           So nou’n pran sa legzanp, e ki nou’n dir ki nou pou konplet sa national risk assessment within 1 year. Once ki nou konplete nou vwar ki nou bezwen increase sa threshold to 25 percent nou pou fer. Me propozisyon ki pou nou as Gouvernman se maintain sa 10poursan. Me selman letan nou pe regard provizyon 49 (5) ki SIFSA in koz lo la. Diskisyon ki nou’n gannyen internally akoz sa provizyon i pou egziste dan Beneficial Ownership Bill nou pe propoze pou retir sa seksyon an antye.                       Akoz osi en requirement FATF, Partnership, Foundation and Trust, zot pa pou kapab annan threshold. E sa nou’n diskite avek OECD last week. Is as par the OECD requirements standar li osi. So propozisyon ki nou pe retir antye sa seksyon akoz deza kouver anba Beneficial Ownership Bill.  Mersi Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi SS. Bon si napa komanter nou a kontinyen.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mr Chairman wi, dernyen ki mon annan avek sa section se the subject that was raise by the Trade in relation to section 48(1)(b). “The FIU shall acknowledgement of receipt is suspicious transaction report within 24 hours of its receipt”. The Trade feels that the reporting entity should be made aware of any potential crime offenses in order to carry its duties efficiently.  That is not enough to acknowledge the suspicious transaction report but that the reporting entity shall be made aware of any potential crime offenses in order to carry its duty efficiently. As the regulator you need to weigh in on whether or not that is the case. I have my own comments, I will wait to hear from the Trade. Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ms Hall.

 

MANAGER EXTERNAL AFFAIRS FIU SANDRA HALL

Mersi Mr Chair. Mersi Onorab pou sa kestyon. Nou zis anvi provide en klarifikasyon lo section 48(1) (b). Sa seksyon i pe zis spesifye ki ler FIU pou resevwar en suspicious transaction report i pou fer konnen sa reporting entity that yes, we’ve received this suspicious transaction report.        Me selman from then on, lo kote FIU nou bezwen conduct nou analysis pou vwar whether that suspicions ki nou’n ganny alerted to is founded. E dan sa dele letan 48hours i definitivman enposib pou nou fer konnen en reporting entity ki the report they’ve reported to us, nou’n kapab determinen pou dir the suspicions is founded. E nou osi bezwen bear in mind ki model FIU pe sanze.                          Son model travay pe sanze anvi ki nou pou sorti from a highbrId FIU e nou pe ganny transformen in to an administrative one. Which means we do not conduct investigations.  E If a reporting entity i annan okenn konviksyon or they know for a fact that a crime has been conducted, zot pa sipoze pe vin kot FIU but rather go to the police for the purpose of an investigation.                                FIU ki nou pou fer nou, we do an analysis, e baze lo sa lanaliz e sa outcome ki nou’n come to, nou fer en dissemination to law enforcement agencies. Dan sa ka then it will be either FCIU or Anti-Corruption Commission. E si nou regard section 63 (1) dan sa Bill i dir nou pou dir sa investigative body i annan 63, 14 days which to provide FIU with a feedback as to the information package ki zot in resevwar. E si nou couple sa up avek section 27(P) ki dir ki periodically FIU may give feedback to reporting entities on report ki nou resevwar anba sa Act.                                           So nou bezwen konpran pou dir 48(1)(b) is about acknowledging, me selman i annan provizyon anba sa Lalwa ki met sa lobligasyon lo FIU periodically to inform reporting entities of what’s happened avek bann rapor ki zot in submit.                                   So, i pa vedir ki zot pou zis ganny en acknowledgement e then ki sa langazman i terminen.  Non! It goes through a process.  There’s a cycle. So, once ki nou, nou’n fer le neseser we pass it on to our partners and we get those feedback ki then nou, nou transmet avek bann reporting entities ki then zot ava annan sa re-asirans pou dir sa ki zot in submit avek FIU in ganny travay lo la e sa i rezilta sa lanaliz.                                E osi nou bezwen konsidere ki sa ki FIU i resevwar i en suspicious transaction report.  I pa vedir ki en krim in ganny komet.  I zis vedir ki lo kote sa reporting entity baze lo zot leksperyans e zot tranzaksyon avek sa customer, zot in war en serten keksoz ki’n raise zot suspicions and which is why they’ve submitted that report.  So i pou vreman reckless lo kote FIU to give feedback within 48hours pou dir that something is happening that is what not en sufficient delay letan pou  provide that kind of information. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Ms Hall.  Mr Stevenson.

 

RESIDENT ADVISOR KEVIN STEVENSON

Just to add a little bit what the concept the feedback is supposed to be. As it relates to reporting entities STR to the FIU. To add what Sandra just discussed. Is the feedback should be in terms of the quality of the STR.  It’s not designed to be specifically about specific STRs and in that ultimately lead into an arrest, or a confiscation.      The feedback is supposed to be – This is something where i think this Act when we talk about the new sectorial approach and supervision. The supervisors can be working with who they are supervising to look at the quality and the quantity of the STR reporting and provide that feedback about the kind of holistic view of the FIU receiving those STRs from the reporting entities.  But providing feedback on individual STRs is never really the intent.                                Of course, the FIU is gonna look at a specific sector or look at a particular financial institution and if there’s serious deficiencies in the quality  in the FCIUin terms in the STR reporting;- of course they will provide that feedback and say your reports are – you are  missing this and that. That’s the kind of holistic view as it relates to the feedback to improve the whole STR report and regime. And I think it’s you know having a specific STR feedback was never was designed.  

Also, the FIU is obligated to do  a strategic analysis and from the strategic analysis should be what we call topologist’s report or risk red flag indicators, or risk indicators that will be shared with the industry, that will be derived a lot of that information from the STRs which will help develop – you know kind of this feedback to the sectors  as it  relates to the STRs  that are coming in. So that’s kind of what we mean by feedback and that’s more of a realistic approach I believe as well. Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you. Onorab Georges

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair wi egzakteman sa. Tousala mon konpran me zot pe regard li from FIU point of view, annou regard li from the reporting entity point of view. En kliyan i transfer en larzan lo mwan,  e ki mwan mon pou transfer $1milyon, akoz mon le vin aste en later Sesel. It’s a new client.  Premye keksoz mon pou dir li mon pou dir please do but I’m going to have to raise an STR e anvoy kot FIU.  No problem.  I anvoy son larzan.  Dek ki i antre dan mon labank mon anvoy sa kot FIU because I don’t know, I really don’t know whether it’s good bad or indifferent, me I want to cover myself. De ou trwa zour pli tar i pou call mwan sa kliyan i pou dir mwan well have you heard anything back? Under the current system mon pou bezwen dir li ‘’well sorry we have to wait 14 days.’’ Akoz i bezwen pas dan bann lezot Lazans.  And then in 14 days’ time we are going to get something back from the FIU telling us yes, it’s ok or no it’s not ok.                                        That’s not the way to do business.  Nou pei pou soufer in trying to over regulated we are going to kill business. Sa ki sa propozisyon i anvi se ki I can go quickly to the FIU e zot ava dir mwan dan de ou trwa zour ya ya it’s ok. Its clean you don’t have a problem.  Tell them.

Ou konpran ki mon pe dir ou? Se sa ki mon krwar ki nou pe rode la rather than having to wait for the bureaucracy to grind  through for 14 days pou donn nou en repons.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mr Stevenson.

 

RESIDENT ADVISOR KEVIN STEVENSON

Well I mean under the current Act the FIU is transitioning to an administrative style FIU.  So there’s no hold on a STR that’s filed. So, if you, I think there a tipping off Clause somewhere in the legislation about you’re not supposed to notify the customer or the client that you’re reporting an STR.                             But secondarily there no fourteen day requirement under this Act because the FIU  has transitioned to the administrative FIU.  The Director does have the power to freeze the transaction specifically under very unique circumstances for 5 days, but the STR will be reported and the reporting entity could move forward with the transaction unless they’ve receive information that instruction from the FIU by the Director that it’s frozen.  So, it’s completely changing the landscape as opposed to the past in that regard, recognizing the issue that you presented.       

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Yeah but I’m sorry I don’t see it.  You see the moment you, 14 days doesn’t come from us it comes from you, it comes from the panel.  They say we have to send it because we’re transitioning to an administrative FIU.         We’re not going to do the thing ourselves we are going to send it to our partners they  are going to look at it they are going to take 14 days. It actually doesn’t. The slowest thing with the SIB is FIU due diligence, 42 days was current. So what do you think is going to happen?  For the client is going to be on your back saying ‘’hey you reported my money it’s clean.  And it turns out that it’s going to be clean.’’  But he is going to wait for 14 days which is going to be spill over.                     It’s not going to be 14. This is bureaucracy at work, it’s going to be 3 weeks, 4 weeks, 5weeks and you’re still waiting for somebody to come back and say ‘’hey, look your money is clean go ahead and do what you like.’’ That I think is what the Trade might be worried about. We need a mechanism whereby we can go to the FUI and they can say ‘’ya go ahead.  It’s going through the process but it looks alright.’’ It’s comfort I think that the Trade needs, instead of being subject to a system of verification which will report back when it’s ready.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes, Mr Stephenson.

 

RESIDENT ADVISOR KEVIN STEVENSON.

I’m still in the new Act.  I know that this  was the old practice of the FIU that  once an  STR was – report, was filed or disseminated to the FIU that there was this kind of automatic freeze on their asset.              

That’s no longer the case under this Act. You can file an STR, say for example a financial institution has a customer they say this I outside this customer’s normal practices. We’re going to file an STR because we ask the customer and the explanation was wanting, ok?  So we filed the STR.       The Bank can still execute it. It could  be a wire transfer, the bank can still execute that wire transfer in to – unless it’s directed by the director to freeze it for 5 days, but the transaction go unless that instruction comes. So, there is no 14 day’’ transaction stop’’ anymore under the current Act.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you. Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

It’s not the freeze it’s the fact that you raise an STR. No professional who raises a STR and I can talk about myself is going to do anything with the money until and unless there is something back saying, ‘’it’s fine.’’ Even though it’s not frozen.  Because you are  at the risk imperative.  Why would I go and do a transaction on something which might bite me later on?  I’m not going to. I’m going to tell the client ‘’hey I’m sorry. I’m going to wait because I need to cover myself.’’  

And this is the problem. There is no mechanism now that allows me to call the FIU and to get a comfort while waiting. I have to wait through the period. That’s the problem.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you. Hon’ble Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you, Mr chair. Mr Chair, but based on what is being discuss section 48 when it talks about an STR, you need to have the suspicions that this money is derived from criminal activity or some form.  Because it says ‘’… reasonable grounds to suspect.’’ And we have also introduced reasonable grounds to suspect earlier on, when it came to the belief and thinking issue.  So you don’t just raise an STR if you know that, for example it’s a construction company that usually trades in that amount of money that’s making a transfer.              In any case as soon as the transfer is made whilst you are reporting it as a reporting entity, the bank will also report it because the bank is also a reporting entity.  So, the point of this new provision is that there are reporting entity along every line.  So if there no freezing of the money I don’t see how business is going to be affected really. I think the onus is on the reporting entity to do their CDD, their Customer Due Diligence to ensure that their KYC is on to the standards that they know which customer is sending the money  to them.                                

And the bank, since the bank will be dealing, and the bank will also do their KYC to know who’s receiving the money that is being sent to them. So along that line everybody will be doing their CDD. I think this is one of the lacking which we’ve had in the past here, in that we’ve not have that and why we have been raising STIs left right and center  freezing accounts left, right and center. And that creates a problem.            So, in avoidance of that we are changing the legislation.

When it comes to informing and I think we have to understand something I don’t get it why if you raised an STR and there’s a sort of an investigation going on you need to be informed about the investigation,  but there a risk of that person who the subject of that investigation being tipped off. And so that creates another bigger risk in that there will be no confidence within our system. So, to protect the system from itself, there has to be some restrictions on what is going on. This is normal.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mr Stephenson you wanted to add something.

 

 

RESIDENT ADVISOR KEVIN STEVENSON

No,  I think the way the system is designed and I think this new act and the new administrative style FIU is, if you have concerns it’s up to the reporting entity to determine if they want to continue or enter into a relationship with a client.  If you have serious concerns that the proceeds or the transaction could be related to criminal of proceeds of crime, then i think you could argue that it would not be in your best interest to engage in that relationship. I think that up to the reporting entity to make that determination.                                     I also think at the other side of the coin if we put the  onus on the FIU, we could honestly, we could put the FIU in a position.   If in fact that we try to turn the FIU into a clearing house by saying ‘’well I want a get feedback from the FIU on this specific STR then I know that these are not criminal proceeds.’’ And the FIU will be and I think in a very awkward and a terrible position in a sense that if they do give you the feedback ‘’yes, that is not proceeds of crime.’’ But then spontaneous dissemination from the US comes 3 weeks later ‘’yes and we’ve now linked that the proceeds of crime.’’ Now you’ve got the FIU saying ‘’ohh it’s clean money and now you’ve got new information that says its dirty money.’’                   So, it wouldn’t want to put the FIU in that kind of position nor is the system designed to be that. It’s more about your having your customer relationship;- you’ve entered in a relationship with your customer, everything is running fine and then you get these aberrations in terms of the customers activity as it relates to  moving proceeds or funds and you sit there.  And the explanation is not what you would consider reasonable or suspicious and the you file the STR accordingly. You’ve kind of somewhat protected yourself because it’s a suspicion.  You do not have knowledge that is the proceeds of crime but you have a suspicion that the activity is unusual or suspicious and then you file the STR with the FIU and it’s up on the FIU to conduct the analysis and then base on their analysis they can disseminate to the SFIU or the ACCS for further investigation.          

And then it’s up to those law enforcements to – you know  – to run with the investigating if they choose to do so. So that’s kind of how the system is suppose to work and I think this new Act is transitioning us along those line. Thank you. Sorry for taking about this so much.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you. Way forward. Onorab Pillay oubyen Onorab Georges.

 

HON SEBSTIEN PILLAY

Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Chair, that brings me to, i anmenn mon a lafen part  VI. And I suppose we can take a vote on part VI.  Mon krwar mon pa’n tro mal fer ek letan.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mon pa krwar nou kapab pran en vot yet akoz i annan amannman ki’n ganny propoze ankor ki pou ganny take up during break.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

That would be to section 101. I pou ganny azoute at the end. It won’t affect part 6.

 

MR SPEAKER

SS Payet.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair zis pou mon regarde si kekfwa zot in pran an kont sa seksyon 49(5). Yes 49(5) zot in retire. Letan nou ti pe diskit sa bout apre zis pou reword number 6 and 7 apre kot seksyon 49(7) pou li met sa limero.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair. Sa ki Sekreter D’Eta Payet pe demann nou pou fer  nou pa ti’n met dan plan. Petet Onorab Georges if you can bring up 49 (5).

 

MR SPEAKER

49 (5).

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

49 (5). E mon a les SS Payet talk to the changes please.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok. SS

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

49 (5) non propoze ki nou delete sa whole seksyon apre nou re number 6 pou vin 5, number 7 pou vin number 6.

MR SPEAKER

Ok number 6, 5.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Apre number lo sa menm the records kept sub section 6 zis pou retir sa number pou fer li vin 5. Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok. Sa i konplet alor part 6. Bon nou a kapab pran en vot lo part 6 ki konpri Clause 30 ziska 54 as amended ‘’preventive measures’’ e ki form par lo sa Bill. Mon a demann tou Manm ki an faver? Okenn Manm ki kont?  Madanm Deputy Clerk.

 

 MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Chair. 17 Manm in vot an faver e personn kont. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Madanm Deputy Clerk. Savedir part 6 in ganny aprouve par Lasanble Nasyonal. Mon propoze wi nou ava pran en break ler nou a retournen nou ava kontinyen. Reste nou ankor 6 part pou nou dil avek. E mon swete par 5er pli tar 5.30  kekfwa nou ava rise e nou ava kapab fini aprouv sa Lalwa ki devan nou pou nou kapab pran lot demen bomaten.  So nou ava break e nou ava retournen 4er pou kontinyasyon.

 

(BREAK)

 

MR SPEAKER

Bon nou ava kontinyen nou travay e mon ava handover pou Onorab Georges pou gid nou dan part VII an montan.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair, parey nou’n fer apre midi avek ou permisyon maonles Onorab Sebastien Pillay take charge akoz ler in ariv 4er edmi mon bezwen eskiz mon lekor mon bezwen al teach e mon kontinyen mannyer nou ti’n komanse ozordi.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Dakor Onorab Georges. Onorab Sebastien Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman. So nou ava kontinyen so nou’n ariv lo seksyon 55 part VII, which deal with Supervision Enforcement and Compliance. As usual nou pe servi serten komanter reprezantasyon from the Trade pou nou raise serten issues. Si Manm napa okenn konsern regarding seksyon 55 ziska seksyon 58 (3) then nou ava al direk lo seksyon 58 (3) avek ou permisyon Mr Chairman.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok, okenn komanter from members?  Seksyon 55 ziska 58. Si napa, go ahead Onorab.

 

HON SEBATIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman. Mr chairman seksyon 58 (3). I en konsern kin ganny raise akoz i relate avek an appointment which must be done in writing. Me Lalwa in dir in such manner as may be prescribed.  Dan serten Lalwa in dir in ‘’such manner may be prescribed’’ and such manner may be prescribed i enkli in writing.  Akoz sa i bezwen ganny fer anba en regilasyon.  So, mon krwar sa nomenclature ki’n ganny servi la i adequate.             Nou next konsern ti vin lo seksyon 59. ‘’Reporting obligations of a supervisory authority and it’s staff.’’ Mr Chairman i annan en propozisyon pou replace the wording of ‘’staff’’ with’’officers’’. Mon pa krwar i pe sanz gran keksoz dan 59. Me mon ava les FIU to sa. Akoz Mon pe prezimen ki si nou’n servi ‘’staff’’ throughout the Act or nou pe servi ‘’officers’’ nou bezwen konsistan. So, which one is the consistent use? Are we using staff or officers for … Authority?

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Panel.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair letan nou’n diskit avek Legal Drafter i dir nou zis sa konponan e nou’n agree pou sanze pou li vin ‘’officers’’ dan plas ‘’staff. members’Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi SS. Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, the next section i section 61, me petet sa moman mon krwar i pertinan pou nou raise an issue ki the BAR Association parey Onorab Georges atraver nou rapel Bills Committee ti fer resorti dan son lentervansyon, kot i annan en konsern vis a vi konstisyonalite seksyon 60 as it relates to lartik 19 nou Konstitisyon pli presizeman lartik 19(7) nou Konstitisyon. Mon ti a kontan nou sort out sa issue akoz mon krwar ki i annan lezot Manm si mon pa tronpe Onorab Andre ki ti raise sa konsern dan son lentervansyon. Petet FIU i kapab klarifye and we can move on.  Mersi, Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Panel? Yes, Mr Stephenson.

 

RESIDENT ADVISOR KEVIN STEVENSON

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Just to provide a little hopefully clarity about the suction as you look at the different option that they, now that were taking a sectorial approach with Central Bank the SFA or the FIU would have in terms of trying to make sure that this Act is consistent with the international standards and address some of the deficiencies that were outlined in the mutual evaluation report.             As  you’ll see you have anything from like no penalty, no financial penalty to a return letter concerning non-compliance with this Act all the way to the maximum administrative sanction of a penalty of R1million. The rationale being that the international standards say that sanctions imposed for non-compliance should be dissuasive and proportionate. And one could argue if you look at some of the fines that some of the larger financial institutions have received globally some of these fines have been in the billions. So, putting that in the context of the Seychelles and you acquate roughly R1million will be roughly a $75 thousand fines.           Which in typically will be imposed only in case likely to financial institutions for a breach  is non-compliance with this Act.

 So that’s kind of the rationale that these administrative sanctions need to be both dissuasive and proportionate. That being said there’s also a due process concerning this, where whoever is being sanctioned has the right to appeal and then ultimately if they don’t like the determination of the appeal board has a right to take the matter to the Supreme Court.                So, I think you have not only just are they dissuasive and proportionate but I also think that you have due process as well.  And I think this will meet you know kind of carrot and stick approach of the sectorial supervisions, and it will be consistent. I think with most successors will look at this and say yes, we find this to be dissuasive and proportionate.  So, I think that’s the goal here.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you. Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you, Mr Chairman. Just a brief note in support, in that Mauritius also has administrative penalty framework and, in their framework they introduced administrative penalties that are related to the gross income.  So they talk about minor infringement 1 to 5 percent of gross income moderate 6 to 10 percent and major 11 to 13 percent. The BVI has the same sort of procedure in there I think it’s in schedule 4 and their fines  go up administrative sanctions go up to around $75thousand.   So, I think the whole point was to established these sanctions because they are not only relating to small outfits or the lawyers or reporting entity but it  also relate to banks,  who  if they are in breach, if you put a small penalty on a bank say R50 thousand a bank can pay it straight away but, if it’s a penalty that commensurate with the level of transaction and the amount of money involved in the transactions especially with banks, then it would make sense to have a higher dissuasive  sanction.                     And we will not also, based on the comments of the BAR Association Onorab Georges can weigh in at any point in time, there is a due process where you can appeal to the judiciary as well, if you feel that the sanction imposed is not commensurate with the act. So, I think that should address the issue of the constitutionality of that section – ok?

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Pillay. Okenn komanter? Nou kontinyen Onorab, mon krwar nou’n fini sa seksyon sa part?

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Ok, Mr Chairman, in section 61 there was a concern raised by SIFSA for the appeals board to hold hearing. But there is no time frame and currently they are saying there has been instances were an appeal has taken four months to be heard.          So, this is a legitimate concern based on evidence that says that the appeal has taken that long. So, what do the authorities have in place to ensure that if you have a section in the law that creates for an administrative penalty or sanction, you do have a process that doesn’t take vitam aeternam before you can get an answer to whatever infringement or breach that has happened?       So, I will be grateful if the panel could clarify that before we move on Mr Chairman.   Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you Onorab Pillay. Panel? SS Payet.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Thank you, Mr Chair. Mersi Onorab. Mr Chair, lo kote Appeals Board nou’n pran li en norm ki egziste ozordi dan bann lezot Lalwa. I pa premye fwa ki nou entrodwir Appeals Board. I annan bann lezot Lalwa ki egziste so nou’n pran li en pe dan sa konteks.                  Apre osi kekfwa definitivman i kapab pran en pe plis letan. I depann natir e konteks en appeal ki vin devan kekfwa, i annan ki mank lezot lenformasyon ki Appeals Board kekfwa pour demande.  So dan sa konteks ki nou’n pran li nou pa pe propoze pour met en time frame lo la.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi SS. Okenn komanter? Non?  Onorab Afif.

 

HON AHMED AFIF

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair zis en sizesyon;- eski nou pa kapab annan en proteksyon par egzanp.  Si FIU I annan tou lenformasyon neseser me zis pour anpes dizon en malis I ganny fer ki zot annan tou lenformasyon zot kapab fer en desizyon lo sa Bill, me si zot deside pour tenir pour 2mwan ouswa 3mwan, eski pa merit annan en Clause par la ki dir ki si zot annan tou lenformasyon. Then I devret annan en dele letan petet 1 mwan petet 2 mwan si tou lenformasyon i la. Mon pa konnen mon pa bon lo sa bann wording me selman zis en sizesyon.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Panel?  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mr Chair also taking into consideration that nou annan section 13 ki dir the decision of the Appeals Board may be taken on appeal to the Supreme Court. Be si ou pa ankor donn sa dimoun en desizyon ki desizyon i pour anmenn devan Supreme Court. So, ou pe donn li provizyon pour li kapab challenge sa desizyon me ou bezwen donn li en desizyon.           Sa ki petet, sa ki fer se ki ou pe kapab.  It is fair to assume that you should be able to give that decision within a time frame. I understand perhaps a time frame might relate to your ability to ensure you have all the proof,but in the event, what is being asked is in the event you have all the proof, all the information, all the evidence, what should be the time frame within which you can give a decision?

 

MR SPEAKER

Panel? Yes Mr Rao

 

ASSISTANT PRINCIPAL LEGAL DRAFTSPERSON  SRINIVASA RAO

Section 62 (4) deals with the disposal of appeals by Appeals Board.  After completions of pleadings within 30 days, the appeal is to be decided by the Appeals Board. Section 62 of the Bill provides for disposal of appeal within 30 days from the date of completion of the pleadings for disposal of the appeal.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

That is correct Mr Chair.  Annefe ou war i annan appeal will be filed within 30 days of the decision of the supervisory authority. So deza ou annan 30 zour. The appeal under 62(4) the appeal will be decided within 30 days.  So, i annan en lot 30 days.                                 Mon krwar sa i fer kler ki within 60 days i pou’n fini ganny deside. The issue is malerezman le moman ki sa i kler i annan en problenm lot ki ganny leve.              An appeal under 62(3) shall be heard at the place and time as may be determined.  But yet in 4 it’s not going to be heard at all.  It’s going to be decided on the affidavits and other supporting documents.  So, there is no hearing. Donk sa se en dezyenm problenm. E trwazyenmman 30 days from the completion of the pleadings – there is no pleadings from the date of the submission of the appeal under 2 – mon krwar. If I’m right mon krwar nou kapab fer sa bann pti adjustments.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges. Panel eski zot agree?  Dakor?  Ok panel i dakor ek lamannman ki lo screen devan nou? Ok, Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Zis pou nou keep abreast, nou renumber larestan Clauses non?

 

MR SPEAKER

Wi, 3 i tonbe?

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Just a question pour nou tyeke avek draftsperson.  Is there any cross reference to any of these sections in another section?  It’s not going to be affected?  So, then if we renumber it’s not going to be a problem but, in any event you will have to go through again to check if  there is any cross reference questions.    Ok, Mr Chairman that concludes our review of part VII thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you, Onorab Pillay. Bon in ariv moman pour nou pran en vot lo part 7 ‘’Supervision and enforcement of compliance’’ Clause 55 ziska 62 ki form par sa Bill as amended. Tou Manm ki an faver?  Okenn Manm ki kont?  Madanm Deputy Clerk?

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Chair.  22 Manm in vot an faver e personn kont. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Madanm Clerk.  Madanm Deputy Clerk. Onorab Georges ou oule fer en komanter?

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Yes Mr Chair.  Mon ti an vi aport a ou latansyon ki panel pou al sanze la akoz nou pe pas lo investigation e pa menm dimoun ki pou la. Me FIU mon krwar zot se zot ki pli enterese avek sa transitional provisions ki fek ganny sirkile devan nou.  E kekfwa i ti ava byen pour nou retourn lo la, la ki pandan zot, zot la. Akoz bann dimoun investigations kekfwa pa pour osi okouran avek sa.

 

MR SPEAKER

Wi, mersi Onorab. Me zis swivan vot ki nou’n fer mon zis konfirmen ki for the record ki part VII as amended in ganny approve par Lasanble e i form par sa Bill. Bon eski Onorab Georges ou le move sa lamannman. Oubyen propozisyon.?

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mr Chair non.  Mon le zis sinyal avek panel ki sa se en propozisyon ki pe ganny fer avek SIFSA ki pa’n pas atraver Bills Committee, e ki’n vin subsequently akoz dan Bills Committee SIFSA ti’n dir nou ki they will take this under consideration e zot a fer nou ganny en draft. Nou fek gannyen.  Dan sa gran bubble ble par kote drwat se komanter SIFSA.                                 Se zot rezonnman akoz zot pe propose sa e mon ti lir taler en pti pe lo zot rezonnman with regards to Clause 42.  Si mon pa, if I’m not mistaken.  E an sa ki konsern larestan zot dir anba dan margin, although the remaining sub section may already be part and parcel of the AML ki Mr Rampal in dir nou is the case.                                       We appreciate that such provisions need to be immediately complied with on the passing on the AML Bill. However, since sub section 3 and 4 section 49 of the AML Bill seem to subject new measures that is why we specifically ensured that they also form part of the transitional provisions gives sufficient time to all reporting entities to comply.               Alor nou annan en pozisyon la parey panel in dir nou kot nou trouv nou lekor ant de keksoz;- enn se ki the Trade i anvi letan pou zot comply, sirtou akoz en bon pe zot bann lenformasyon is held offshore. Bann antite laba ki anvoy biznes isi, e lo lot kote nou annan en lobligasyon koman en Nasyon vis vi EU ek bann lezot lorganizasyon ki pe monitor nou, pou nou pa trennen e pou nou fer en keksoz pli vit posib. Donk nou pou bezwen manage sa de lekspektasyon dan e trouv en solisyon ozordi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges.  Panel komanter.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair, si petet mon ava kapab pran sa propozisyon pou nou kapab konpran egzakteman from bann assessment ki nou’n fer ki bann lobligasyon ki nou’n santi exactingly i deza dan sa AML law ki nou annan e ki in ganny zis replicated anba the current Bill, right?  Petet nou vwar ki zot in konmans lo seksyon ok, maybe mon ava konmans lo konmansman.                     Parey SS in dir demen ler nou pe tous sa BO Bill proposal se ki nou anmenn li an 2020, 2021 rather, e as such nou pou anvi align any timeframe ki nou pou pe donnen with compliance in line with sa Zanvye 2021.  Ler nou’n regarde pou nou i konmans lo seksyon 31 kot nou pare pou nou donn en timeframe pou nou kapab comply.  Akoz le 31 i sa lobligasyon pou zot kapab register with the FIU parey nou ti dir bomaten i annan en platform ki pou ganny servi pou sa bann lanrezistreman.  E sa platform pou nou FIU i pou only pare an Desanm e only normal pou nou donn Zanvye pou reporting entity konmans comply avek sa lobligasyon to register – ok?                              E dezyenmman lo 32, i deza annan existing provizyon in terms kot zot sipoze fer zot bann aktivite on a re-sensitive basis, me given nou’n extend sa provizyon, nou santi ki i again i ase normal pou nou donn en serten timeframe, pou zot kapab re aziste zot mode of operation pou fer sir ki zot kapab comply avek sa 32, lo laspe pou zot identify e assess ML avek TL risk.

Lo kote seksyon 33 given ki i deza li osi tou link avek 32 par rapor pou ou kapab etabli en system of internal control ki pou depandan lo the assessment ki ou’n fer lo money laundering risk, i normal pou li osi pou nou propoze ki extension i ganny donnen pou zot ki i ava Zanvye 2021 as well.        E pou compliance officer existing li osi tou 34, seksyon 34 i deza annan sa requirement pou tou reporting entity apwent en compliance reporting – entity officer rather, me eleman ki nou’n entrodwi ladan i ki sa endividi i ganny assess pou etabli ki i fit and proper, pou li kapab desarz sa responsabilite koman en compliance officer of a reporting entity.  E alors sa li osi i en process, akoz now nou pe promot anba sa Bill nou pe promot sectorial supervision, ki pou bezwen annan guidelines ki pou ganny issue ki pou endike lekel en dimoun, ki bann kalifikasyon or requisite ki en dimoun pou kapab be deem, fit and proper for the purpose of appointment as a compliance officer pou en reporting entity.  Sa i 31 ziska 34.                            Me ler nou pe regard 35 all the way to 47, tousala i deza bann lobligasyon ki anba the current law e tou reporting entity enkli bann lawyers parey ti ganny dir bomaten, ki zot osi tou zot annan sa bann lobligasyon pou zot comply avek CDD measures, enhance due diligence e politically exposed person, even simplify the customer due diligence dan ki lenstans ki ou kapab apply simplified all customer due diligence.   Reliance on regulated person i deza en mechanism ki egziste anba the current law e on top of it zis pou nou note ki petet isi Sesel in en pratik ki’n komanse avan.                          E then ki nou’n entrodwi li dan Lalwa.  So, tousala i an konformite avek the current AML law osi tou.  E i annan sa bout pou 43 kot nou annan lobligasyon to seize transaction sa i lenstans kot ou pa pe kapab etabli CDD measures lo ou customer ki in line with the current law i en lobligasyon ki’n ganny enpoze par the AML Law.  E the obligation to monitor customer activities sa i part of customer due diligence kot i menm require ou to conduct ongoing monitoring lo sa relasyon ki ou annan avek ou kliyan.  E obligation to maintain record ankor i par rapor to sa 7 an, ki ou bezwen kit lenformasyon par rapor to tranzaksyon ki ou fer an relasyon avek ou kliyan.                So, nou pozisyon lo la i ki lobligasyon 35 parey in ganny propoze up to 47, i existing lobligasyon anba the current law.  E nou pa war en nesesit pou sa bann be subject to any timeframe of compliance.  But as opposed to 31 ziska 34 nou santi ki wi par rapor to lobligasyon in sanz en pe, nou panse ki en peryod letan ziska Zanvye 2021, i akseptab pou reporting entity kapab comply avek sa bann lobligasyon.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal, Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair zis pou konpran Mr Rampal alor eski nou gard dan 31, eski 31(4) li i pou take effect immediately parey i mete dan sa paz.  So 31 except for 31(4) i ava ganny en delay me 31(4) with immediate effect. 31(4) immediate applicability lezot pou al ziska Zanvye 21. This is what SIFSA is proposing;- don’t include 31(4) me kit ‘immediately applicable.’

 

MR SPEAKER

Go ahead Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair. I pou vin aplikab apre ki nou’n donn sa peryod letan tranzisyon for that purpose.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

So, 31(4) osi tou pou ganny letan.  So it’s not about an exemption? E what about 49 dernyen 49(3) and (4)immediate applicability’ zot dakor ek sa?

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Petet i zis en omisyon, lo papye even 49 i existing provizyon anba the current law.  Mersi.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

So, if I understand 31, 32, 33, 34 delayed until January 2021 larestan non. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

SS Payet?

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair, kekfwa lo provizyon 34(1) mon konnen nou ti’n pran en vot pli boner me selman nou pou bezwen rephrase si nou pou donn sa transitional period, akoz son wording li i ‘’every reporting entity shall appoint a compliance officer within 30 days from the date of coming into force of the Act.’’ So si nou pe met en transitional   period kekfwa i pou kontradir en pe sa provizyon.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair. Mr Chair, mon pou aksepte zot lesplikasyon be akoz ki 31(4) pa pe kapab konmans deswit?  I mean si ou, ou pa ankor pare pou platform eski nou pou esper ou pare pou platform pou nou konmans kolekte lenformasyon vizavi sa bann entities?                              I suppose you need to be ready and have some form of way for you to collect this information already?  Unless I’m mistaken?  I mean why should why do we have to wait for you to be ready with a platform to collect the information? Why shouldn’t that information – because I understand the provisions which are new, but this one basically talks about changes in particulars which you need to furnish.  What if you have a reporting obligation to furnish any change?                                 And you now have to go back to the reporting entities and ask them to furnish you these changes?  What if you get a request for a change coming down the line say as soon as this Act is passed, what are you going to do?  Isn’t that defeat the whole purpose of this afternoon we spent here going through this thing and ensuring that we meet the requirements? Correct me if I’m wrong.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel.

 

MANAGER EXTERNAL AFFAIRS  FIU SANDRA HALL

Mersi onorab pou ou kestyon, si monn konpran ou byen sa bit about the reporting entity to register with the FIU, ou pe propoze that it starts with the commencement of the Act?                Pou nou the way we see it registration avek FIU pou baze lo the basis of that platform i en platform elektronik baz digital.  So instead of kontinyelman we want to digitize lafason ki FIU i travay.  So i pa pou vreman efektiv even efikas pou nou konmans resevwar lenformasyon;- paper copy or even through, I’m not sure en propozisyon email, kan we don’t have a system an plas ki efektiv pou nou resevwar sa lenformasyon efektivman.  Which is why ki anliny avek sa propozisyon pou annan sa transition period.                       I pli fer sans pou nou konmans resevwar.  Ler tou sistenm i an plas then nou konmans resevwar lenformasyon ki then i anpes nou annan sa double duty of them collecting the information first and then met platform an pals and then re kolekte sa bann lenformasyon.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Ms Hall. SS.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr chair kekfwa zis pou azout dan konteks standar, ki mannyer nou pe ganny assess nou mutually evaluation report ti ganny adopte avek council of Ministers by Septanm 2018.     By Septanm 2018 nou annan nou 3 an pou nou konplet tou bann amannman Lalwa, so deadline i by Septanm 2021.  Me Selman akoz the process of demand rerating, nou pe anvizaze ki by Septanm sa lannen pou nou konplet tou bann Lalwa lamannman.  Me selman bann konteks effectiveness konmansman Septanm 2021 ou pou annan 2an pou ou demontre effectiveness ki pe arive avek ou bann statistics.         So, mon krwar menm si sa provizyon i pe ganny mete an Zanvye 2021, definitivman once ki by Septanm 2021 ler zot montre effectiveness zot pou war en pe sa bann dele letan.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi SS. Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr chair zis pou azoute lo sa ki Ms Hall in dir, parey nou vwar i site anba sa provizyon i dir ki bann particulars pou ganny preskri anba regilasyon.  An se moman la the particulars have not been prescribed yet, ok?          Prezan i pou difisil pou zot kapab notifye nou of bann changes ki zot pa konnen akoz we are yet, prezan ki nou pe al come up avek bann particulars ki en reporting entity pou bezwen be required pou zot submit ek the FIU as far of registration processes right? Prezan it’s only ler zot, zot aware of what are the particulars which are  prescribed for them, ki prezan la ki zot pou kapab fer sa registration.  

So, i pou irelevan pou en reporting entity kapab anvoy bann changes of particulars ki pa ankor ganny preskri.             E pour se sa rezon i nou panse once i prescribed and ler nou’n ganny sa bann platform i pou meyer e i pou annord osi, pou nou kapab fer zot konmans ;-

Enn, populate sa through registration e dezyenmman si i annan any changes then zot pou kapab fayle  sa pou nou kapab rikord sa bann changes dan sa register.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal. Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, my final word under the subject i sa mwan, you are registering entities that are already registered by the Registrar you basically.  So there’s already a register there.           So, how come you cannot have the register witch the Registrar has until you system  is  ready because you are basically taking over, because Central Bank is taking the banking area, FSA retains its  IBCs, CSPs areas and insurance, but you are taking over from the Registrar, so essentially this is what you’re supposed to be doing unless I’m mistaken.  So if you knew that this was not going to be ready now, how come there was no leg work done? The concept that I have in respect PS is that we have been told before, that we have pre review in 2 years preview in 3 years, but then coming a year later we hear something   finance blacklisted or somebody does this or somebody does that.                          So, what I want to ensure is that we pass this Law and we don’t have that problem again.  That’s what I want to ensure.  So if we can guarantee me that this was not happening, I’m fine, I’m happy.  That’s all I wanted to raise awareness to. Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you Honorable. Panel. SS.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair, thank you e thank you Onorab.  Non konnen i annan, vi ki i annan en ta prosedir ki nou pe follow FATF, OECD, avek EU, mon konnen i annan sitan bokou akoz par egzanp en lot bann lezot lamannman ki nou pe vin avek lo konsernan accounting information for IBC li nou pa pou kapab esper sitan lontan.  So definitivman i annan bann lenformasyon ki nou pou bezwen konmans revwar li dan son totalite.  Me tandis ki son bann provizyon ki FIU in koz lo la, se sa bann provizyon anba FATF  e nou kapab espere pou Zanvye 2021.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi SS.  Ok? Onorab Georges any other comments?

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

No, Mr Chair mon krwar nou kapab proceed lo vot pou sa part.

 

MR SPEAKER

Eski nou pou pran vot lo sa?  I en nouvo Clause.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Pardon, transitional provisions fodre nou fer li antre, nou a fer li antre at the end. 101, e nou a vot lo li then.

 

MR SPEAKER

Eski nou’n ganny son wording sa Clause, 101?

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Yes 101, Mr Chair, pou li not notwithstanding any other provisions of this Act, any reporting entity shall follow the provisions of part 6. Well, we could enter it here. In fact mon krwar petet sa ki zot ti pe al demande by January 31st 2021 apre nou a met section 31, 32, 33 ek 34. E save 34(1) li i pa pe ganny konsidere.  Si nou oule fer li la I will propose the wording right now.

 

MR SPEAKER

Dakor akoz panel pe al sanze.  So, annou fer li enn fwa.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Si nou fer li antre la nou pour bezwen sanz the next 40 sections akoz tousala pou sanz limero.

 

MR SPEAKER

Eski nou fer li la oubyen nou fer li at the end 101 parey nou’n –

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Transitional usually i al to the end so, mon krwar i ti ava pli apropriye.

 

MR SPEAKER

So, zis nou’n prepar wording nou ava anmenn li towards the end pou nou pran en vot lo la.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Yes, e pandan ki nou lo la Mr Chair, zis an ka ki mon pa la at the end ler nou pran en vote lo the Bill as a Whole, mon’n postpone mon lobligasyon ziska 5er.  Mon pou demann avek Manm Lasanble parey labitid pou donn nou laliberte fer okenn typographical modifications apre ki nou’n vote e avan ki White Copy i al kot Prezidan.  Akoz nou pa pou ganny letan fer li ozordi.  I pou pran nou ankor 1 ou 2 zour akoz i long sa travay.

 

MR SPEAKER

Dakor.  E mon krwar i ok.  I annan en konsansis en kou mon konnen i annan en travay kontinyel.  Zis marginal votes i ganny osi pran dan sa Act i ganny osi pran lo kote marginal notes.  Ok?  Nou ava kontinyen, part VIII Investigation.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, the panel is about to change?

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes, nou kapab fer sanzman panel, zis lo rapor SIFSA i met part 7 koman investigation.  Mon mazinen i sipoze part 8 en?  Bon nou ava welcome Ms De Silva koman CEO Anti-Corruption Commission. E Ms Tania Potter ki legal advisor lo panel devan.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  An relasyon avek part 8 i annan bann seksyon ki annan pou fer avek envestigasyon. Si Manm napa okenn konsern mon pou raise bann issue ki’n ganny raise atraver rapor ki mon annan devan mwan,  ki SIFSA ti submit  avek Bills Committee, e zot konsern se ki there are only 2 sections which are relevant to investigations for AML purposes, which are sections  63 and 64 whereas section 65, section 66, section 67 which is 65 i deal ek search warrant 66 production order e 67 power to  arrest.            All relate to Criminal Procedure Code and should be administered respectfully.  Basically sa ki SIFSA pe demande se en separasyon ant bann keksoz ki tonm anba Criminal Procedure Code e larestan i bann eleman ki annan pou fer avek AML so zot reste la.                                  Me selman Mr Speaker, mon bezwen note ki malgre ki in servi legzanp UK;- UK i napa en AML lack proper.  I servi en Proceeds of Crime Act ki donn kreasyon son bann AML offences.  So that’s why ki i kapab met tou le de ansanm. Nou, nou’n separ le de, so that’s why parfwa probableman i neseser pou nou annan sa bann provizyon dan Lalwa.  Me mon ava les panel koz lo la e si nou kapab termin sa then nou pou kapab move on lo part 10 ki the next part ‘’restrain seizure and forfeiture. So Mr Chair mon hand over back to you for the panel for their comments.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab. Bon, panel comments.

 

LEGAL ADVISOR TANIA POTTER

Mersi Mr Chair.  Lo sa kote i enportan fer resorti ki kantmenm sa bann provizyon i prezan dan bann serten Lalwa, espesyalman sa Criminal Procedure Code ki SIFSA in fer referans avek, i enportan ki nou note ki nou pa pe depart from the existing provisions ki deza an egzistans.  So it’s not a departure from the provisions ki deza an egzistans dan CPC for instance.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Ms Potter. Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mr Chair, mon dakor avek Ms Potter. E annefe sa set en provizyon ki nou vwar dan bann Kontra ‘’in addition to and not in derogation of.’’ Alor i en additional power ki pe ganny donnen avek FIU.  Me le moman ki ou fer sa kestyon ki pou ganny demande se well the FIU is no longer the administrative FIU, if it has criminal powers it cannot continue saying,  ‘’But we were only an administrative FIU.’’  Akoz nou pe fer search warrant pou pe sezi keksoz nou pe fer toudsort.        Alors sa i en kestyon ki pou leve.  E dezyenmman Bar association dan rapor Bar Association anba AML Bill paz 2, zot pa kontan sa search warrant anba seksyon 65 e zot dir ki sa i pli Draconian ki sa enn ki egziste anba CPC – Criminal Procedure Code akoz i donn zofisye anba sa Lalwa bokou plis pouvwar ki zot annan anba Criminal Procedure Code. I pa neseserman en konklizyon ki mon dakor avek, me i en konklizyon ki zot in raise e ki nou devret fer fas avek e eksplike.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair.  Following sa largiman ki onorab Georges in raise regarding ‘’in addition and not in derogation thereof,’’ i enportan osi pou Trade e lezot eleman be cognizant of the fact  that sa Lalwa pe fer kreasyon pou Financial Crime Investigation Unit,  ki basically in take over sa investigative arm of the FIU.  As opposed to avan the FIU had that investigative arm itself.             Si nou al anba seksyon ‘Lenterpretasyon’ nou pou war Law Enforcement Agency is defined. So konsern ki petet ti annan regarding FIU being the agency ki pou al fer investigation petet i pou al ganny aleze, because now it is the FCIU ki li i annan en rol parey dan lezot ziridiksyon pou annan pou li fer bann envestigasyon vizavi bann krim ki relate avek money laundering.  E lefe ki in annan serten sanzman ki’n arive anba POCA  i pou fer ki i pou pli fasil, pa pli fasil me zot pou bezwen fer serten aksyon anba sa Lalwa ki anba POCA probableman zot pa pou kapab fer until ki POCA i ava ganny amande consequently.  So se pour sa rezon ki mon krwar i annan lenportans ki la, me as to the question of the search warrant and CPC and seksyon 95 mon krwar that mon ava les avek panel pou reponn akoz i en pti pe an deor mon remit.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Pillay.  Onorab Loze.

 

HON JOHAN LOZE

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Earlier mon ti raise sa kestyon 63 (1) e Direkter FIU ti ganny loportinite pou li eksplik nou sufficiently, ki mon ti satisfe ek son repons e  i ti les nou konpran ki sa i konsern bann local investigating entities.  Prezan mwan, I want to hear from the local investigating entities spesifikman lo sa dernyen provizyon dernyen fraz kot i dir ‘‘determination to the FIU in the manner in the manner as may be specified by the FIU’’.  

Mon anvi konnen si zot, zot pa santi i restrikiv wi ouswa non what do you think of it?  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi.  Nou ava donn panel sans pou fer komanter.  Ms De Silva.

 

CEO ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION MAY DE SIVLA

Mersi Onorab.  Wi sa bout  i en bon pwen ki ou’n leve akoz ACCS i en independent entity Law Enforcement Agency alors nou bezwen tir sa bout ‘‘in the manner as may be specified by the FIU’’. 

Apre lo, lo sa pwen pa zis FCIU ki en Law Enforcement Agency it also be for other Law Enforcement Agencies parey nou.  Akoz corruption i en predicate offence of money laundering, so we will be,  e pou annan en consequential amendment ek nou Lalwa pou nou kouver money laundering.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Ms De Silva.  Mr Stephenson.

 

RESIDENT ADVISOR KEVIN STEPHENSON

Just to add a little bit – perhaps try to add a little bit of clarity of the purpose of this particular provision.  This is basically a kind of a feedback for to determine the quality of the analysis and the quality of the report disseminated by the FIU too, which would likely be the FCIU or the ACCS. 

So in order to capture that information that the Clause was to put in a matter specified by the FIU, because that would be, be an advantageous to the FIU to have it reported no matter where they can made a better determination of where they’re not focusing enough analysis where the deficiencies are.  What they are doing well and what they might not doing well.  

So it’s kind of a feedback Clause, is the purpose of that the particular thing.  Just to -.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  But the issue to us is that if you look at the ACCS it is an independent entity – an autonomous body.  If the information which you are talking about only relates to an issue  which the FIU has to deal with, then I can understand and perhaps the FIU might want it a certain way. 

But is the Clause saying thatThat’s the question we need to ask ourselves.  Is this Clause saying that?  Because for you to give a determination to ACCS it’s as if this is an autonomous body that can see anything in the information provide to it by the FIU.  So that might be a concern that I have.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you Honorable.  Ms De Silva.

 

CEO ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION MAY DE SIVLA

Ok.  Dan sa lenstans wi akoz si pa nou ki pe demann sa lenformasyon FIU e zot, zot in war poudir dan petet en legzanp en STR zot in raise prezan zot in amenn kot nou latansyon, wi nou bezwen donn zot en feedback lo la.  So dan sa sirkonstans wi, alors nou bezwen spesifye ler zot ki raise sa issue avek nou sa suspicious activity report, or si zot ki refer en matter avek nou.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Ms De Silva.  Bon, eski nou retire?  Yes, ok.  Okenn lezot?  Yes Ms De Silva.

 

CEO ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION MAY DE SIVLA

Petet nou a met ‘‘in the manner agreed by all parties’’.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Nou tire, nou kite Mr Chair?

 

MR SPEAKER

Nou tire.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Nou tire?

 

MR SPEAKER

Kwa ki pe ganny propoze Ms De Silva?

 

CEO ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION MAY DE SIVLA

‘‘Amend in the manner as agreed by all parties’’.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mr Chairman.  This is a fascinating subject, and I’m overhearing a fascinating set of reactions here.  So I just hope we don’t have territory jurisdictional concerns.  Can, we agree on a wording from the panel that satisfies the – not the wishes but the implication and application of this Clause?

 

MR SPEAKER

Mr Rampal ou kapab anvoy en pti not si oule pou help the panel.  Okenn sizesyon lo ou kote wording?  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mr Chair non mon pa pou oule.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mr Chair,  mwan, mon – frankly I mon pa war, I don’t see the problem.  Annefe mon ti a prefere tir konpletman ‘‘in the manner as may be specified by the FIU’.  Akoz si nou regard li byen Law Enforcement Agency is sent a report by the FIU. Ok? 

 FIU receives a report sends it to the enforcement Agency because it is only an administrative FIU, it no longer carries out investigation and enforcement.   Alor i anvoy li laba and the enforcement Agency has to determine whether further investigation is required.  And then report back to the FIU on that determination. 

So all it’s being asked there is to say ‘’we’ve determined that in further investigation is required and we are carrying it out or we don’t feel that further investigation is required we’re sending your file back to you.’’

Mon pa war akoz zot bezwen swa agree between FIU and enforcement Agency or li FIU poudir the manner in which the report is going to come back.  They don’t know.  It maybe that the report is positive or the report is negative. 

Les sa enforcement Agency fer son determination and provide the determination to the FIU, full stop.  Leaves both free to operate.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges.  Panel?

 

CEO ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION MAY DE SIVLA

En minit akoz i kapab ki sa i relevan dan nou recommendation 34 dan nou mutual evaluation ki nou bezwen kite pou nou donn zot feedback.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Loze.

 

HON JOHAN LOZE

Mr Speaker.  Mwan, mon sel konsern ler mon ti lev sete tant bien que mal nou anlev the operational ambit of the FIU.  Loperasyon i dan lanmen sa bann dimoun ki la ki annan investigatory powers.  Nou’n fek defann FIU on the basis ki se FCIU ki carry out the operational arm of the FIU.

Si nou pe met en keksoz la ki purely a reporting mechanism between the operational arm and the FIU, annou ou dir li kler.  La mon pe ganny lenpresyon ki FIU i kapab fer en determinasyon lo kwa ki sa bann dimoun pou fer ek son lenformasyon.

Ki i anpyet dan loperasyon.  Deza mon pa anvi fer sa pli long mwan.  Selman si nou fer li en keksoz dan en direksyon nou’n carry on parey nou’n komanse, par half way through la ki nou ariv lo 63 prezan nou sort of retourn pouvwar operasyonnel par laport deryer ek FIU.  Kan SIFSA li i pe fek konplent sanmenm ki i annan FIU i annan en pouvwar operasyonnel par laport deryer.  Mersi Mr Speaker.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel?  Yes Ms De Silva.

 

CEO ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION MAY DE SIVLA

Si FIU i, i ganny lenformasyon ki annan en lofans ki konsern koripsyon, se nou sa antite ki responsab pou investigate bann ka koripsyon.  Alors i refer sa avek nou i disseminate tou sa lenformasyon kot nou.  Parske nou, nou ganny nou lenformasyon  par diferan sours.

E FIU i pou enn sa bann sours, akoz li i pe ganny sa bann STRs pli souvan ki nou.  So i normal ki tou bann ka ki pou annan ki konsern koripsyon i pa anvoy kot FCIU li i pe anvoy kot ACCS.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mr Chairman.   May be to err on the side of caution annou kit li parey ou ete.  Let’s leave it as is akoz i paret i annan bann obligasyon for now.  Rest assured – konmsi ki nou asire selman poudir ACCS dan son lamannman in fer antre dan predicate crime of anti-money laundering e i a kapab fer son travay.  And then but I think we need to agree on the manner specified so that neither ACCS nor the FCIU nor the Law Enforcement Agency are not curtailed in the manner in which they have to report. 

And so that they have an avenue to raise a – I don’t know they can raise their own STR if the FIU ever decide to tell them in which direction in which manner to make their determination and with that we can move on Mr Chairman.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi.  Yes Ms Potter.

 

LEGAL ADVISOR  TANIA POTTER

Mersi Mr Chair.  Ti annan sa kestyon konsernan Seksyon 65 search warrant ki kekfwa nou devret koz lo konmsi further to bann pwen  ki Bar Association  in leve.  Ankor i enportan note ki seksyon 65  dan sa Bill devan nou ozordi i kler dan sans ki ankor nou, nou pa pe depart from the main, pa the main me sa Lalwa CPC – sa Criminal Procedure Code.

Mazorite keksoz i parey ki, ki sa Lalwa devan nou ki pe demande pou annan.  Sel diferans se ki  sa Ziz ki ekout sa aplikasyon pou, pou determinen si i pou issue sa warant oubyen non.  I bezwen donn sa warant dan 1 zour.  E sa i montre ki, ki basically what we’re after is effectiveness of the fact ki nou anvi sa warant e i ganny issue dan en zour, ki en keksoz ki pa ganny mansyonnen dan CPC dan Criminal Procedure Code.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Ms Potter.  Bon si napa okenn lezot komanter lo sa part?  Non.  Nou ava pran en vot lo part VIII Investigation ki konpri Clause 63 ziska 67 nou pa’n fer okenn lamannman ok – as is.  Mon ava demann tou Manm ki an faver?  Okenn Manm ki kont?  Madanm Deputy Clerk.

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Chair.  18 Manm in vot an faver.  E personn kont.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi.  Savedir part VIII Clause 63 ziska 67 in ganny approve par Lasanble e i form par sa Bill.  Bon i reste nou ankor 1, 2, 3, 4 part.  Eski nou kontinyen oubyen nou pou kapab fini demen nou annan en lot Bill osi tou demen.  Onorab Bernard Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mr Chair.  Beneficial Ownership Bill i kourt i bokou pli kourt ki sa enn in fini ganny tracked.  E donk i, i mon mazinen i pou bokou pli fasil ki sa enn.  I napa otan keksoz kontansye malgre ki SIFSA in still anvoy en rapor ase long lo li.

Me sertennman i pou en Bill ki nou kapab fini dan en zournen.  Alor mon pa, mon pa konnen ki mannyer panel i santi li, me mwan, personnelman kekfwa i ti ava bon pou konsakre 1erdtan demen bomaten pou fini sa enn, apre nou kapab all lo Beneficial Ownership.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok.  Eski i annan konsansis?  Nou kontinyen avek travay demen bomaten? E an menm tan i annan bann netwayaz ki pe ganny fer ki pe kontinyen ganny fer.  Onorab Georges, Legal Draftsperson avek nou Legal Counsel.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mr Chairman.  Mon krwar i en bon propozisyon, Beneficial Ownership pa that long, so nou probableman nou kapab kouver li demen.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mon remarke lazournen in ase heavy.  Menm i annan Manm pou pran en vot, lanmen i en pti pe lour pou leve.  So i en moman kot nou kapab adjourn.  Mon ava demann Sergeant pou move Mace pou nou rekonstitye konman en Lasanble the Whole House.

Bon nou ava adjourn e nou ava kontinyen nou travay demen 9er bomaten.

 

 

(ADJOURNMENT)