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Home » Verbatim » 2020 » Verbatim Wednesday 4th March, 2020

Verbatim Wednesday 4th March, 2020

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF SEYCHELLES

Wednesday 04th March, 2020

 The Assembly met at 9am

 National Anthem

 Moment of Reflection

 Mr Speaker in the Chair

 

 

MR SPEAKER

Bonzour tou Manm Onorab.  E bonzour tou dimoun ki a lekout e pe swiv travay Lasanble Nasyonal.  Bonzour Minis avek ou delegasyon.  E bomaten nou pou kontinyen avek nou travay lo Anti-Money Laundering Bill ki nou’n komanse depi Lendi.

E nou swete ki nou pou donn 1erdtan edmi la bomaten pou nou kapab fini pas ladan.  Ki apre 11er ler nou a antre, nou swete ki nou kapab pran prosen Bill ki lo nou Order Paper.  Bon mon ava demann Sarge pou move Mace pou nou al dan Staz Komite.

E lo panel devan touzour pe ganny lead par Minis pou responsab pou Finans Mr Maurice Loustau-Lalanne.  Ki akonpannyen par son Sekreter D’Eta Mr Patrick Payet.  Assistant Principal Legal Draftsperson dan AG’s Office Mr Rao.  Resident Advisor to Seychelles Government Mr Kevin Stephenson.  E nou annan Ms Tania Potter ki Legal Advisor.  E CEO pou Anti-Corruption Commission Ms May De Silva.

E nou annan lezot osi tou zofisye parmi nou.  Bon nou pou kontinyen kot nou’n arete yer.  Savedir la nou pe pran part 9 ozordi.  E mon ava donn laparol Onorab Georges pou lead nou.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  Bonzour Mr Chair.  Bonzour Minis avek ou delegasyon.  Bonzour tou bann Manm Onorab e tou dimoun ki pe swiv nou dan lakour.  Mr Chair avek ou permisyon, mon krwar sa fason ki nou ti pe proceed yer ti mars tre byen.  Onorab Sebastien Pillay i ava prezant bann lamannman.

E mon, mon ava travay lo bann lamannman  lo boardSo avek ou permisyon, kekfwa Onorab Pillay i a kapab koz lo bann propozisyon SIFSA pou sa part 9 ki devan nou.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges.  Onorab Pillay laparol i pou ou.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  So nou ava kontinyen kot nou ti, nou ti arete yer unless petet avek ou permisyon mon pa konnen si Minister Finans i annan okenn lamannman adisyonnel ki zot oule azoute.

Oubyen zot ava fer li apre ler nou’n fini termin larestan, larestan lamannmanSo nou ti’n aret lo restraint seizure and forfeiture yer.  E bann propozisyon SIFSA nou ti’n diskite anba, ki ti vini, sete Seksyon 69 (3).  Akoz nou ti’n fini koz lo sa size AML Law avek Proceeds of Crime Act.  Akoz Sesel i annan, i annan de stati ki i servi, whereas bokou lezot pei i met tou anba en menm stati.   Menm dan bann legzanp ki ti’n ganny donnen parey Langleter e BVI osi.  So lo part 9 nou lot eleman ki monte, se dan seksyon 69 Mr Chairman.  E dan Seksyon 69 (3) (a) i annan sa size ki’n ganny entrodwi, se sa se sa restraint order.

E komanter ki’n ganny pase, en komanter ase serye ki ‘it is unconstitutional to restraint a property which is not described in the restraint order’.  So nou ti ava demann panel pou donn nou en lesplikasyon lo propozisyon.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Pillay.  Bon, laparol i pou panel pou klarifye sa komanter ki’n ganny fer par SIFSA.

 

CEO MS MAY DE SILVA

Ok sa provizyon i anba the previous AML Act.  E ler nou annan sa restraint order la, annan ler si ou spesifye, e ler ou ariv on site, i annan de lezot keksoz osi ki ou bezwen restraint.

Alors i annan de, de lenstan kot ou pa kapab spesifye egzakteman.  So as much as possible ler nou annan en restraint order si nou kapab be specific nou met dan Order nou anmenn kot Ziz.  Be i annan de lenstan kot ou napa ase until you get there – sa lenformasyon.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi CEO.   Okenn Manm i oule fer komanter?  Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, Mr Chair, ou konnen the Investigating Authority pa Lakour.

They need to specify what is being restraint.  Mon krwar nou bezwen osi realize, menm si nou pe fer en Lalwa nou annan en Konstitisyon ki nou bezwen abide to.  E nou pa kapab kit keksoz ouver.  E ou letan ou ale, ou pe investigate, oubyen ou ariv lo sa ou, ou pou fer sa travay letan ou laba.  Non, i bezwen ganny spesifye.

Akoz parey mon’n dir Lartik 19 dan nou Konstitisyon i bezwen ganny respekte.  En dimoun i bezwen konnen kan ki in komet en lofans e anba ki Lalwa ki in komet en lofans.  Nou pa kapab kit li ouver pou donn ou, mon poudir ou, pa ou konman en endividi konmsi sa entity powers pou fer sa ki li i krwar i apropriye letan i ariv lo siteThat’s not the right way to do it!  Nou bezwen – mwan, mon pa krwar nou bezwen partisip dan en Lalwa ki pe kit keksoz sitan ouver pou donn nou en lanmen lib pou ou fer en Restraint OrderRestraint Order anba 68 la  i spesifye serten keksoz.  E mon pa krwar ki ou, ou kapab ale an deor sa.  Nou bezwen annan spesifikasyon kote nou bezwen travay.

Silvouple annou fer nou Lalwa, pa akoz nou oule ganny tire lo sa noncooperative list ki nou bezwen demen en dimoun pou anmenn en case Ankour poudir sa i anti-constitutional because of A, B, C.  Epi Lakour poudir nou’n fer at least part of sa Lalwa i anti-Konstitisyonnel.  Annou fer li byen silvouple.  Annou pa bezwen breach nou Konstitisyon pou fer plezir en lenstitisyon enternasyonal.  Nou bezwen osi dir li gete, si sa i le ka nou bezwen amann nou Konstitisyon pou nou fer li vin koumsa, apre nou a diskite mannyer nou pou amann nou Konstitisyon.

Annou … Let us be serious.  Mon dir sa akoz mon santi ki sa bann legzersis ki nou pe fer la pou touy sa lendistri.  Si nou anvi touy sa lendistri annou dir sa lendistri pa egziste.  E annou pa fer li difisil pou fer sa lendistri operateOk?  Mon pa’n la yer i annan sa laspe 30an ki mon ava demann Speaker taler mon ava al war li dan break pou nou kapab koz lo la.  Me selman mon pa pou koz lo la, la.  Mon ava gete ki mannyer nou kapab retourn lo la si i posib.

Me selman mon pou kont sa laspe ki Manmzel De Silva in dir lo ki nou ler nou ale nou war alors nou bezwen.  Non that’s not the constitutional way of doing things.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Zis pou retourn lo ou komanter.  Sa ki Lasanble in fini vot lo la yer nou pa pe retourn lo la in fini pase in fini vote – ok?  Wi si oule anmenn en constitutional case ou ava anmennen.  Me Lasanble in fini pran en desizyon lo la.  Onorab William.

 

HON WAVEN WILLIAM

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Bonzour tou dimoun ki a lekout.  Bonzour Minis avek bann Manm lo panel.  Mr Speaker mon pa pou fer mon komanter akoz sa ki ou’n dir la i anpes mwan dir sa ki mon ti pou al dir.  Akoz mwan osi mon santi poudir koman en Manm Parlman lefe ki nou pe diskit lo, lo Lalwa ki pou afekte nou dan lavenir.  E mon krwar i nou devwar pou nou dir bann keksoz ki nou santi pou afekte nou bann dimoun.  So mon a zis aret la, baze lo sa ki ou’n dir.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi.  Mon krwar ou osi ou pou anmenn en constitutional case.

Me zot ava, zot ava deside zot de zot ava dyaloge zot de.  Me desizyon ki’n ganny pran nou pa retourn lo en desizyon lo en vot ki Lasanble in ganny in fer.  Me nou annan bann prosedir dan lefitir, once ki the Act comes into force ki en Manm i kapab anmenn serten lamannman and all that.  Onorab Bernard Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair mon konpran, mon konpran tou lede kote tou lede largiman.  Me mon pa personnelman convince avek largiman ki sorti lo floor.  E mon dir sa pou en senp rezon, ler sa i pa warant sa taler nou pou vin lo warant.

Li sa nou pe koz lo en restraining order.  En restraint order ki en Lakour i fer – ou war?  Me si nou fer analogy avek en warant si dizon Lapolis i ale i ganny en warant i fer en Mazistra siny en warant pou al fouy for X.  E dan sa warant i mete ou pou al rod mon pa konnen mwan en highfy en telefonn, en telefonn oubyen en highfy en, en set lanmizik.  E ler Lapolis i ariv laba i war en keksoz ki en pe letan i pe rode.  I konnen ki in vole.  Of course i annan drwa pran malgre ki sa warant pa kouver sa.

Akoz otherwise i pou bezwen retourn anba re rod en warant retourn avek.  We can’t tire the hands of the Law Enforcement Agencies a sa nivo.  La i annan en sofgard e sa sofgard se Lakour.  E sa sofgard se Lalwa.  Obviously si i ganny abize i pou anti konstitisyonnel.  Me si napa labi?  Si se pou ed the Detection of Crime.  E nou pe koz lo Anti-Money Laundering la nou.  Nou pa pe koz lo nou pe koz lo Countering of Terrorism.  Nou pa pe koz lo bann, bann misdemeanor.  Nou pe koz lo bann keksoz ase grav.

Mon krwar ki malgre ki i annan en posibilite ki i pou ganny abize.  Mon krwar ki the balance i bezwen tip an faver sa ki sa Lalwa pe rode.  Se pou counter en Anti-Money Laundering ek e Terrorism Financing otan ki posib.  E donk si dan balans tou keksoz i egal,  personnelman mon, mon krwar ki nou devret tip an faver sa ki nou pe sey anpese rather than an faver en drwa en dimoun ki pe komet en lofans in other words.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges.  Mon a donn en parol panel, si panel i oule fer en komanter.  Non?  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair zis pou ki piblik i konpran ki sa Lalwa pa pe aplik zis pou lendistri offshore sa.  I aplik pou tou lendistri.  E si nou regard Seksyon 68 i dir ou ki rol Lakour i annan pou zwe.  So i pou annan en, en litmus test si oule ki  sa order, sa request pou sa order i bezwen pase.  E nou pa krwar poudir Lakour pou zis grant en Order lo on the whims of okenn Lotorite unless ki i annan levidans ki i satisfe poudir sa i leka.

E trwazyenmman sa ki enportan pou nou konnen poudir sa, sa Lalwa i deal avek the criminal conduct of the personWhereas the proceed of crimes i al pou sa proceeds.  I met lanmen lo sa proceeds i sezi sa proceeds.  So there is a slight difference dan lafason ki, ki sa i bezwen ganny enterprete.  E sa realizable property i fini vin realizable once ou met li dan sa restraint order.  Ou’n fini fer li vin tanzib ler ou met li dan sa restraint order. 

So Lotorite bann Law Enforcement Agencies i bezwen sa scope pou zot kapab fer zot travay.  So nou pou kontinyen Mr Chair baze lo bann lo mon krwar sa ki nou’n dir.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes go ahead.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

The next section is section 72 (2), kot komanter ki’n leve se ki section 14 to of Proceeds of Crime Act 10 of 2017 was removed and now the same section 14 (2) reappears in section 72 (2) of the AML Bill.

Pou bann Manm si mon ti a demann Chair Bills Committee to take us to 72 (2).  E panel si zot kapab weigh-in lo okenn rezon.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Pillay.  Panel.  SS Payet.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Bonzour Mr Chair e tou Manm Onorab e tou dimoun ki a lekout.  Mr Chair mon krwar kekfwa konfizyon ki i annan avek comment ki’n made by Industry.  Lamannman ki ti fer an 2017 ti parey zot konnen sa rol administratif FIU e investigative ti transfer ti al kot Lapolis.  E sa provizyon dan Lalwa ki ankor egziste ozordi se tir, tir sa bout FIU lo sa konponan restraint ki ti tire akoz FIU ti vin en administrative FIU.

Sanmenm sa ki nou’n fer klerman dan fonksyon FIU.  Me propozisyon se nou maintain.  Akoz i egziste dan Lalwa.  Me sa rol i avek the Law Enforcement Agency not FIU.  Mon krwar sa i en pe konfizyon ki i annan avek comment ki’n ganny mete.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi SS.  Okenn komanter from the floor.  Si non, nou a kontinyen.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair pandan ki nou pe koz lo link ant POCA avek sa AML Law;- i annan en remark ki en remark zeneral ki SIFSA in fer dan sa part.  E zot pe demande akoz sa Part ‘restraint in seizure in forfeiture’ in, in retourn dan AML Law e i pa’n reste dan POCA.

Sa se en general comment ki zot pe fer.  Kekfwa panel i ava kapab eklersi Lasanble lo la.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel.  Ms Potter.

 

LEGAL ADVISOR  TANIA POTTER

Mersi Mr Chair.  Bon bonzour tou, tou Manm e tou dimoun ki pe ekoute.  Ankor sa kestyon e sa konfizyon i anmenn nou ver sa 2 Lalwa.  So i enportan ki, ki nou konpran ki sa de Lalwa, i 2 Lalwa diferan.  Parey in, in ganny sorti lo floor enn, enn i POCA Proceeds of Crime Act lot ki devan nou ozordi i the Anti-Money Laundering Act.

Sa  2 Lalwa i diferan dan sans ki enn, enn i sivil, lot i kriminel.  Parey Onorab Pillay in fer resorti sa enn sivil  it goes to against the property e  pa sa dimoun ki Lalwa Kriminel ou, ou bezwen annan en conviction sa dimoun ou bezwen annan en charge sa dimoun i bezwen al Ankour.  Sa dimoun i bezwen ganny convicted apre ki ou, ou pou bezwen ou kapab apply pou en restraint oubyen en pecuniary penalty order. 

Lo kote, lo kote komanter ki the industry in fer resorti zot pe dir ki akoz ki i annan sa bann provizyon dan POCA e la nou pe remet li ankor dan sa, dan sa Lalwa.  Mon krwar sa larepons ki mon, mon’n fek donnen la i bezwen reponn zot kestyon i de Lalwa diferan.  

So basically vi ki i diferan son bann eleman in terms of proving sa lofans i, i pou bezwen dan sak Lalwa.  Pa akoz  i deza dan POCA nou pa pou, nou pa pou met li dan Lalwa AML.  Wi e sa bann provizyon i deza an egzistans dan sa Lalwa AML la.  E i osi an egzistans dan Lalwa POCA.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Ms Potter.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair nou, nou konpran sa e, e mon kontan ki Lasanble e SIFSA in ganny sa repons akoz i en repons kler.  Enn  i annan pou fer avek sivil enn i annan pou fer  avek kriminel.

Pandan ki nou lo la e avan ki nou al lo the next section ki Clause 74 (4) mon pe regard 72 (3).  E i annan en, en konsern la.  Company means ‘any legal entity formed and registered in the Republic’.  That can’t be.  Akoz en partnership is the legal entity.  En Association is a legal entity.  So unless ki nou anvi ki tousala i ganny konsidere konman company nou pou bezwen sanz sa definisyon la.

Sa sete non bann, bann keksoz ki nou pa ankor ariv lo la pou nou track.  E ki nou pou, nou pou fer li in due course.  Me in zis ki in tap lo mon lizye la or mon lizye in tap lo la an mezir ki nou pe pase.  Kekfwa panel ti a kontan eklersi nou lo la.  Mersi Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges.  Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair sa lesplikasyon lo AML avek POCA i fer mon retourn ankor lo 68, 69.  Ms Potter in dir nou ki AML, Criminal, POCA, sivil e letan en case criminal in fini ki bann assets i a ganny sezi.

Me selman, me selman dan 68 i dir ou mon pou fer en restraint order, ‘Restraint Order where the Court may make a Restraint Order where proceedings have been initiated in Seychelles against a person for criminal conduct’.

2enm, ‘either pecuniary penalty order has been made, an appeal to the Court that there’s reasonable grounds for the pecuniary order is being made’,  si ‘’the Court is satisfied that proceedings are being instituted.’’  So i pa korek pou nou dir ki poudir letan in konplete ki nou pou bezwen fer sa.

Akoz ou pe fer en restraint order dan sa konteks.  Konmsi ki mon pe sey dir, sa leksplikasyon ki pe ganny donnen i pa koresponn avek sa ki i pe ganny demande dan 68, 69.  So nou bezwen kler letan nou pe eksplike.  E si nou’n tir en provizyon en Seksyon dan en Lalwa mon krwar lendistri pa ankor ganny sa lesplikasyon kler.  E akoz i pe reaparet dan sa Lalwa ki la a sa letan.

Ler nou’n tir li anba POCA ok?  Sa, letan mon pe get lendistri ki in dir kominikasyon ki’n ganny fer se ki ‘Section 14 (2) of the proceeds of crime was removed  -2017 – was removed and now the same Section 14 (2) reappears in Section 72 (2) of the AML Bill’.  So eski letan nou ti tire i annan en lot rezon ozordi akoz nou pe mete.

Mwan si i annan en rezon ki nou donnen e i satisfezan.  Mon krwar lendistri i a konpran.  So se sa ki  mwan mon pe dir.  Epi sa lesplikasyon pou mon i pa marye avek sa ki dan 68 ek 69.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.   Panel.   Antretan ki nou pe esper panel mon ava donn laparol Onorab Loze.

 

HON JOHAN LOZE

Mersi Mr Speaker.   Bonzour Mr Speaker.  Bonzour tou koleg Onorab e tou dimoun a lekout.  Mr Speaker konman nou lo sa size POCA versus AML la, mon ti a kontan profite pou mon demann panel pou eklersi en keksoz pou piblik a lekout.  Si en case in ganny built anba POCA apre ou tire ou anvoy li ganny pourswiv anba AML,  eski ou pou kapab servi sa menm case ki ou ti pe built anba POCA pou ou kontinyen sa pourswiv sa dimoun sepa sa property anba AML?

E is it the same case so i annan diferans?  Sa ki mon anvi konnen.  Mon ti a kontan ganny eklersi byen lo la.  Mersi Mr Speaker.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair kekfwa mon a konmans lo sa bout Onorab Andre.  Parey mon’n mansyonnen Onorab Andre, se mon krwar sanmenm sa ki mon’n dir i annan en pe konfizyon from the comments ki Industry in fer.  Letan nou regard lamannman ki ti ganny fer 2017, sa bout FIU akoz dan Lalwa ki ti egziste at that time ti enkli the word FIU.  Savedir FIU i ti annan sa power pou fer investigative apre sa bout administrative.

Me tandis ki la ki nou’n fer se nou’n fer li klerman ki FIU i reste as administratif me tou sa konponan investigative i avek bann Law Enforcement Agency.  So mon krwar sanmenm sa ki i annan still sa konfizyon ant Lalwa ki ti ganny amande 2017 avek Lalwa aktyel ozordi.  So sa provizyon i still maintain akoz sa Law Enforcement Agency konponan ki egziste ozordi anba sa bann Seksyon.

So mon krwar sanmenm sa ki i annan en pe konfizyon lo lamannman ki ti fer 2017.  Me kekfwa pou Onorab Loze si zis i kapab repet kestyon silvouple.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi SS.  Onorab Loze.

 

HON JOHAN LOZE

Mr Speaker mon kestyon i plito pou bann Law Enforcement Agencies si zot kapab eklersi nou.  Si en case in ganny built anba POCA prosekisyon ti pe ganny fer anba POCA.  Apre nou dir non ou pran sa case ek tou son levidans tou son lenvestigasyon, al pourswiv li anba AML.  Eski ou pe kapab servi sa menm case existing ki ou annan pou ou al pourswiv sa dimoun sepa sa property anba AML?

Ouswa ou pou bezwen built en lot case kont sa property sepa sa dimoun.  Mon ti a kontan zot donn en leklersisman, donn nou byen sa legzanp poudir mon’n konpran byen parey zot pe sey fer nou konpran diferans ant sa de Lalwa.  Mersi Mr Speaker.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Ms Potter.

 

LEGAL ADVISOR TANIA POTTER

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mersi Onorab Loze.  Ankor pou reponn sa kestyon i will go back to lesplikasyon ki mon’n fek, mon’n fek dir.  POCA avek AML i de diferan Lalwa.  POCA laplikasyon ki ganny anmennen Ankour i against the property of sa dimoun.

Savedir ou, ou pa bezwen prouv ek Lakour ki ou bezwen konviksyon pou ou go against the property.  Savedir sa dimoun  pa neseserman ganny sarze pou ou kapab anmenn en aplikasyon  anba Proceeds of Crime Act pou ou sezi sa propriyete.  AML Act i against the person.  Ou bezwen prouve sa, sa dimoun i ou bezwen anmenn en sarz kont sa dimoun devan Lakour.  Ou bezwen prouve ki sa dimoun in, in fer sa, sa Act Money- Laundering.

Pou reponn ou kestyon si, si ou’n konmans en case anba, anba POCA apre pou ou fer en case anba AML  i pa parey.  Akoz POCA i against the property AML i against the person.  So ou investigation pou ou anmenn en case anba POCA ou pou investigate in terms of sa propriyete sa dimoun kote in ganny sa larzan ki biznes in fer.  Si in kapab afford pou aste sa propriyete apre i pou afilye avek en criminal conduct.

Mon pa konnen si mon’n reponn ou kestyon?

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Ms Potter.  Onorab Loze.

 

HON JOHAN LOZE

Be dizon si mon pran en case ki zot annan anba POCA already built anmenn devan Lakour e mon donn ou 30 zour mon dir ou pourswiv sa dimoun anba AML aprezan.

How successful will you be avek sa existing case ki ou annan dan ou lanmen within 30 days pou ou pourswiv sa dimoun anba AML?  Mersi Mr Speaker.

 

MR SPEAKER

Bon mon pou allow panel pou donn en lesplikasyon.  Me selman annou pa deviate from matters in front of us.  Miss Potter.

 

LEGAL ADVISOR TANIA POTTER

Mersi Mr Chair.  I pou difisil pou, pou anmenn, pou anmenn en case against sa, sa dimoun dan 30 zour.  Akoz parey mon’n eksplike investigation anba POCA ou investigation pou plis  lo sa propriyete.

So 30 zour pou ou al investigate sa dimoun i pou en pe difisil e perhaps enposib osi.  Akoz i pou pran letan 30 zour i kapab pa ase pou ou gather sa bann levidans ki ou pou bezwen pou anmenn Ankour pou prouve ki sa dimoun in fer sa krim.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Ms Potter.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Kontinyen.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mr Chair mon krwar nou’n ganny, nou’n ganny ase lesplikasyon.  E zis pou fer sir ki nou tou nou kler lo sa comment ki SIFSA in fer lamannman ti fer an 2017 ti zis dir ‘In Section 14 2) deleting the words and the FIU’.  I pa’n zanmen delete the Section.  So the Section has always been there.  So mon krwar nou bezwen get en perspektiv.  SIFSA is doing the right thing.  Me selman sa bann keksoz ti deza dan Lalwa.  So if there was a concern with it, it should have been raised before.

But there is no concern and it’s part of the landscape of sa bann Lalwa AML ozordi en pe partou.  So we need to move.  Sa ki pli enportan se sa pwen ki Onorab Georges in raise.

Akoz lefe ki prezan nou pou annan diferan Antite ki pou annan bann reporting roles e nou pe extend en pti pe sa net kot nou dir ‘company means any legal entity’.  Se la kot we need to address this amendment la pou nou kapab move on.  Mersi Mr Chairman.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel72 (3).  Mr Rao.

 

 

ASSISTANT PRINCIPAL LEGAL DRAFTSPERSON SRINIVASA RAO

To company.  Instead of legal entity we can use ‘a company means, a company formed and registered under the Republic’.  Company means ‘a company formed and registered under the Republic’, instead of legal entity.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok, thank you Mr Rao.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Wi mon ti pe al propoz sa Mr Chair.  Akoz sa ki zot anvi la mon krwar se dir ki i pa zis en domestic company;- i pa zis IDC;- i pa zis CSL ki en hybrid me it’s all companied registered here. 

So means any company formed and registered.  Is that ok?  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman nou move on to the next Section, which is Section 74 (4) ki deal avek ‘’period and time frame.’’  And as it would make sense.  So there, there is a comment ki that, that under 74 (4) i annan en peryod of of 60 days and then i annan en period of 12 months from date of initial order.  So sa ki SIFSA i oule konnen se akoz i annan sa adisyonnel?

Mon krwar konsern ki’n ganny souleve toultan an relasyon avek sa size AML avek POCA has always been the  periods given and  the time frames kept, timeframes given.  Mon krwar petet bann Law Enforcement Agency zot ava kapab ed nou gid nou from their perspective why that is necessary?  Thank you Mr Chairman.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel.   Mr Rao.

 

ASSISTANT PRINCIPAL LEGAL DRAFTSPERSON SRINIVASA RAO

In this case the initial date of Order will be for 60 days.  Whenever  a necessity arises for extending that period beyond that 60 days, they can file an application again, seeking for extension beyond that 60 days.  

And this can be extended  by 1 year in different spells, different spells.  But it should not exceed 12 months in total.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mr Stephenson.

 

RESIDENT ADVISOR  KEVIN STEPHENSON

Just to add the why the time frame not to exceed 12 months.  It’s often rare but there are instances where a lot of these kind of complex investigations in terms of the seizure of cash especially if you have foreign persons involved in this action,  is that a lot of the assistance that you would need from your foreign counterparts can often take a lot of time.  Especially if you have complex corporate structures setup to find out who the beneficial owner of the cash might be.  You could have had to go through 3, 4, 5 different jurisdictions before you come up with the evidence that you’re looking for. 

So there are instances, and that’s why the time period is up to 12 months.  Because this mutual legal assistance request could take a significant amount of time. 

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you.  Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Chair mutual legal assistance could take significant amount of time.  It is something that needs to be clear.  I would disagree even for the 60 days.  If you’re saying that it could be renewed, then why make the initial order for 60 days?  Make the initial order for a lesser period of time if you conclude you don’t have to wait for the 60 days. 

Because you see the problem with investigative body is that if they have 60 days they will wait probably until the 40th day for them to start doing what they need to do.  And then they come to Court at the end of the 60 days and say we have not concluded what we needed to conclude within the 60 days and so we need extension.  I believe the law also needs to focus on ensuring that the investigative bodies do their job on time and properly. 

So  if you say that you are not going to go beyond 12 months then why put 60 days?  Put 30 days.  At the end of 30 days if you’ve concluded then the person, if you see that, you know, the investigation proves that it’s all legal or whatever.  Then you release the money.  Why you have to wait for the 60 days?  You see my point?  And then  you can obviously come for a renewal after 30 days saying that look, we’ve done our job, we could not get to the bottom of what it is like you are saying, a complex structure that needs to go through 5, 6, 7 jurisdictions.  And we’ve gone to the third jurisdictions.  And we believe that there is 2 more jurisdictions for us to go and we need time.  The Court will allow time. 

And I’m sure the defendant’s Lawyer or the defendant himself would not object to such.  But we need to, I believe we need to do it properly and allow an opportunity for the person also the defendant to have a proper right under this law.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you Honorable.  Mr Stephenson.

 

RESIDENT ADVISOR  KEVIN STEPHENSON

 If you look at the initial period, its initial period is 14 days ok?  And then seizing authority wants an extension beyond the 14 days they have to go to the Court and get an Order by the Judge to get an extension. 

So there’s due process in place immediately after 14 days.  And then an initial you have to prove to Court why a rationale for an extension beyond the 14 days and that can be up to 60 days allowing typically for the Law Enforcement to get the necessary evidence to proceed.   But the limit we are putting on this is 12 months.  So the initial seizure is 14 days and then or period. 

 As then  you would have subsequently need to go if you would want an extension to go to the Judge;- to explain  why you would need an extension  and that would be up to 60 days and then any extension.  After that you  have to prove why do you need an additional period with the time limit being 12 months.  So I think there is reasonableness in due process in you know, kind of quite adequated into this process. 

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you Mr Stephenson.  Honorable Henrie. 

 

HON GERVAIS HENRIE

Thank you Mr Chair.  I just want to ask Mr Stephenson, whether he can reassure our Assembly because we are talking about best international practice.  To give us an example that this provision is also the same in other jurisdiction. 

So that we, we’re not being accused of you know suffocating the industry here in Seychelles.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you.  Mr Stephenson.

 

RESIDENT ADVISOR KEVIN STEPHENSON

Well I think that this provision is consistent with both jurisdiction approaches where law you try to find that balance between  the rights of the individual as opposed to law enforcer.  And you have the due process in place where within 14 days you have the Judiciary is already involved in it.   You want to seize it beyond the 14 days the Judiciary is involved and it’s encumbered upon the Law Enforcement entity to prove to the Judge why they need a further extension. 

So I think that’s, that is consistent with, with international good practices when it, when you try to balance the rights of the individual in the Law Enforcement, try to do  – you know to try and enforce the law.  So i think it’s consistent yes.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes Onorab Henrie.

 

HON GERVAIS HENRIE

But I think also the point of contention is the 12 months. 

 

RESIDENT ADVISOR KEVIN STEPHENSON

It’s not to exceed 12 months.  So I mean  the reality is I mean it’s gonna be a little bit of challenging for Law Enforcement to continually to convince the Judge over a period of time. 

And it’s gonna be my experience is gonna be rare cases that it would not be able to get that evidence within a timely matter within 2, 3, 4 months.  But there could be very, very complex investigations where any critical information especially imagine if you had  an entity that had several different corporate structures that you needed information from Panama, from the  BVI, from Singapore, from Hong Kong to find out who the beneficial owners. 

And then you find out that this is the groups that’s involved in human trafficking or whatever the predicted offence would be.  And then that’s the piece of the puzzle that you needed, it could that a period of time, but you gonna have to go back and explain that to the Judge.  So I think that there is a reasonableness that you have to do this within 12 months but I think it’s going to be in rare instances. 

And you continuously have to go back to the Judge in terms of due process to explain to them why you needed an extension, an extension that would be 60 days.  So I think you know there is that balance.  So I don’t think that it’s unreasonable in terms of how the international community will look at it. 

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you.  Honorable Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Chair si IT pe regard televizyon olye fer son travay eski i kapab vini akoz nou’n switch off?

 

MR SPEAKER

Wi nou pe request lasistans.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mon pwen i Mr Stephenson i dir ki ‘the maximum period will be 12 months’But that’s what not it says.  La i dir ‘shall authorise the further detention of the cash but the period detention in any spell shall not exceed 12 months’. 

So as is drafted now every time you go you can ask for a further 12 months if the maximum is to be 12 months.  Then it needs to say, ‘but the aggregate period of detention shall not exceed 12 months’ ok.  Not the period in any spell ok?  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you Honorable.  Nou ava atann ou deza annan en propozisyon Onorab Georges ki mannyer pou reword.  Oule re reword?

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Non, non.  Nou kapab kontinyen zis ki i pa pou lo board.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Wi ok.  Yes CEO.

 

CEO  MAY DE SILVA

Ok, avan nou, nou bouz lo lot Seksyon mon ti le port latansyon avek Lasanble pou Seksyon 74(1), 74 (1).  Zis mannyer zot in ekri li zot in eksplik li zot in drafte kot i dir’- 5enm laliny ler ou war i dir ‘may search without warrant upon a person, in the border’.

Sa ‘in the border’ nou pe sizere ki nou sanz sa ‘within the jurisdiction’.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman  mon cognizant of the fact that nou pe fer en Lalwa ki i anmenn international best practice i enportan ki nou lir international best practice.  Ozordi Langleter i annan almost a similar provision anba son Account Freezing Order – en AFO e i fek pas sa an 2019 e pou li  i not exceeding 2 years. 

So mon krwar nou bezwen balanse i, i pa fasil pou en Law Enforcement Agency fer en investigation dan 30 zour, dan 14 zour.  Sanmenm sa problenm ki nou annan, sanmenm sa problenm ki ozordi letan nou pou al fer rerating la nou pou al diskit lo bann dissuasive sanctions ki nou annan e lo bann abilite pou nou freeze bann ill-gotten gains.

E nou bann dimoun pa pou kapab eksplike ki nou annan.  Mersi Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Dakor.  Panel in donn lesplikasyon annou move on.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you Mr Chairman.  So nou move on to the next section which is Section …

 

(Off-Mic)

 

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab mon krwar nou’n fini egzos sa bout.  Panel in donn lesplikasyon e nou pe move on ok? 

Nou pe kontinyen en largiman  ant de kote.  Ou’n fer sorti en pwen Onorab Henrie in met lanfaz lo la panel in donn son lesplikasyon ok?  Nou pe move on.  Ok?  Nou annan en time constraint osi.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman nou, nou’n ariv lo Seksyon zis an pasan eski Onorab Georges in capture lamannman propoze par ACCS regarding ‘within the jurisdiction’ anba 74 (1).   Ok alright thank you.  So nou’n ariv lo Seksyon 81 (6) which is the next Section ki nou annan case ki SIFSA in eksplik en konsern lo la.

Mon pa konnen si lezot Manm Mr Chairman i annan okenn lezot konsern avan nou al lo 81 (6)?  Nou ale.  Mersi Mr Chairman Onorab Georges i fer mon sinyal ki i oule retourn lo 74 (1) en.  Just so that nou ganny, nou ganny lagreman avek bann Lotorite pou fer sir poudir the wording is correct.  Onorab.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Thank you Mr Chair.  ‘Within the jurisdiction’ is fine.  But then mon’n fer de lezot pti lamannman.

Nou ti annan ‘his or her’ en pe partou apre ler nou’n ariv la in retourn lo ‘he’ alor mon’n azout ‘she’.  E mon’n sanz ‘nearby’ mon’n fer li dir, mon’n dir ‘in the vicinity’.  Akoz ‘nearby’ was a bit colloquial.  If that’s ok?

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  I think we’re fine.  Mon krwar bann panelist i ok avek sa.  So we move on to 81 (6) Mr Chairman.  Anba 81 (6) i annan en konsern ki’n ganny raised by the Trade regarding the nomenclature the word used ki dir ‘No application under sub-section (2) shall be entertained’.

E the Trade is taking some concern.  Zot pe express some concern regarding the word ‘entertain’.

E zot ti a kontan konnen why use the word entertain and not a more appropriate wording.  Petet sa i en kestyon ki Mr Rao i kapab ed Lasanble so that we can move on. 

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes Mr Rao.

 

ASSISTANT PRINCIPAL LEGAL DRAFTSPERSON  SRINIVASA RAO

We can amend by removing the word ‘entertain by the Court’.  In that place we can say, ‘No application under Sub-Section (2) shall be filed before the Court if it is submitted after 2 years’.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mr Chair mersi.  I don’t have a problem with ‘entertain’, I think it’s a perfect word, I think this is exactly what it means.  ‘The Court will not entertain any application if it is submitted more than 2 years’.  I think it’s, I think it’s you could use ‘considered’.  But I think ‘entertain’ is the word that we use normally in such situations. 

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges.  CEO.

 

CEO  MAY DE SILVA  

I Zis pou echo sa ki Onorab Georges in dir e se ki Lakour i servi sa mo ‘entertain’.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  We move to the next Section which is Section 92 (2) and that is part which is the last section to this part where there is an issue again raised regarding a word used which is the word ‘remuneration’ Mr Chairman. 

So under 92 (2) concern is raised where we have the sentence ‘following the payment of an expenses or remuneration in accordance with sub-section (1)’.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

 

 CEO  MAY DE SILVA

Ok.  Nou oule disteng sa de ‘expenses’ ek saler si en Konsiltan i ganny en saler i pa ganny ‘expenses’.  So sanmenm sa i la.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mon konnen ou pe get mwan, mon konnen ki kestyon ou pe demande.

 

MR SPEAKER

Wi.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Is the remuneration paid out of the Fund or into the Fund?  We need to clarify.  Because what you’ve said yer is that paid into the Asset Recovery Fund.  So mon pe mazinen zot pou servi ARF pou pey en konsiltan.

So it would be paid out of the Fund not into, non?  Sey klarifye sa pou nou please.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes Mr Rao.

 

 

ASSISTANT PRINCIPAL LEGAL DRAFTSPERSON  SRINIVASA RAO

This remuneration under the section 92 is a link with, link with section 2 of section 19 ‘That remuneration is being paid to the receiver who has been appointed by the Court to recover the Penalty Order’.  Once he recovers the pecuniary … money then then he will deduct the expenses incurred of recovering that money. 

And he will deduct his remuneration also.  Then the rest of the amount will be created into the Asset Recovery Fund.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok.  Bon nou’n pran, nou’n pran de part ansanm la.  Nou’n pran part 9 ek 10.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Yes Mr Chair.  Baze lo bann komanter ki nou annan nou’n, nou’n pran sa lot part so i pou reste nou prezan kot nou’n arive.  So nou a pran le 2 part ansanm apre nou ava kontiny lo 11.

 

MR SPEAKER

Wi.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mon krwar Onorab Georges i annan, i annan en keksoz i oule azoute.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mon pa ankor, mon pa ankor kler lo kisisa ki nou’n deside fer avek 90 (4), 92 (2).  Akoz eski nou, nou’n dir nou pou kite ‘or remuneration’ oubyen nou pou tire?  Akoz si nou kit li la 92 (1) only speaks of expenses.  92 (1) says ‘the applied the money be applied to meet expenses incurred in exercising any powers under this Act and remuneration is an expense’. 

So why do we need in (2) to now go to remuneration when we’ve already defined ‘expenses as is being incurred under any powers under this Act’?  Akoz nou pa zis tir ‘or remuneration’?  Akoz sansan i nou riske annan en lot kategori expense ankor ki pa ni en remuneration i en lot keksoz ankor.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mr Rao.

 

 

ASSISTANT PRINCIPAL LEGAL DRAFTSPERSON  SRINIVASA RAO

That remuneration is linked to section 90 sub-section 2.  The remuneration to the receiver. 

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Yes  that’s not disputed.

But a remuneration is an expense.  And if we don’t use the word ‘expenses’ in 92(1) why do we use it in 92(2)?  That’s the point we are making?  In 92 (1) it says ‘to meet expenses incurred in exercising powers in this Act which includes remuneration to liquidators’.  So why do we need to specify it in (2) if we have not specified it in (1)? 

Why don’t we just get rid of it in (2) and generically expenses will cover remuneration and other things?

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you Honorable Georges.  PanelAccepted panel?  Ok.  Aksepte Onorab Georges.  Remuneration goes.   Ok, Onorab Pillay nou’n ariv lafen?

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mr Chairman wi nou’n ariv a lafen sa part.  E the next part will be part 11.  So at this time we will.

 

MR SPEAKER

E nou pa ankor pran vot, nou pou bezwen pran vot lo, lo sa de par separe.

Nou pou pran vot lo, lo part 9 ki konpri Clause 68 ziska 77E parey in ganny amande e ki form par dan Bill.  Mon ava demann tou Manm ki an faver?  Okenn Manm ki kont?  Madanm Deputy Clerk.

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mon’n rikord  21 Manm ki’n vot an faver.  E personn kont.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi.  Savedir part 9 in ganny aprouve par Lasanble as amendedPart 10 ki konpri nou pran en vot lo Part 10 ki konpri Clause 78 ziska 92.  Ok.  E i annan en pti lamannman de pti lamannman ki’n ganny fer.

Mon mazinen i pou annan enn de bann typos osi ki Onorab Georges in dir i pou take care of.  Mon ava demann tou Manm ki an faver part 10 ki form par sa Bill? Okenn Manm ki kont?  Madanm Deputy Clerk.

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Chair.

Bonzour Minis ek ou delegasyon e tou, tou bann Manm e tou dimoun ki a lekout.  Mon’n rikord 20 Manm ki’n vot an faver.  E personn kont.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Madanm Deputy Clerk.  Savedir part 10 in ganny aprouve par Lasanble Nasyonal.  Nou ava aprezan move lo part 11 Asset Recovery Fund.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman parey ou’n dir nou pe al koz lo the Asset Recovery Fund.  Premye konsern ki’n ganny express i regarding seksyon 94 (2) (c). 

‘Any voluntary payment grant or gift made by person’, blah, blah.  The SIFSA’s comments are recommends that ‘the AML Committee recommends.  So SIFSA pe dir ‘the AML Committee’ ki recommend to Cabinet for the sharing of Assets.  Zot kestyon is why is the Cabinet’s not making the decision rather than the AML Committee recommending to the CabinetOk.

 

MR SPEAKER

Panel.  Minister.

 

MINISTER MAURICE LOUSTAU-LALANNE

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman parey mon ti mansyonnen letan mon ti fer mon konklizyon, apre nou ti’n diskit lo merit sa Bill, mon ti fer en komanter an sa ki konsern sa.

E rezon akoz nou enplik Cabinet se espesyalman kan ti konsern en lot pei.  E parey ou konnen relasyon diplomatik ant Sesel ek diferan pei i annan serten varyans.  Donk se akoz sa ki nou, nou oule fer sir ki Cabinet i kapab annan son, son deliberasyon lo la.  Me sertennman nou pou anmenn dan Regilasyon en prosedir ki pou etablir ki mannyer nou pou fer sa.

So vwala vreman akoz i annan sa regar Cabinet lo sa desizyon final.  Mersi Mr Chairman.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Minis.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  Pa lo sa pwen.  Annefe mon krwar ki se 94 (2) (d) ki annan Cabinet, wi, ‘to share property with foreign states with the approval of the Cabinet’.  Mon pa krwar ki bann lezot, bann lezot keksoz i bezwen al dan Cabinet.  Se zis Minis ki kapab otoriz peyman pou bann lezot.  Mon ti a kontan zis propoz en, en lamannman typographical.  Me akoz nou lo la, mon ava profite pou dir li la92, 94 (2) (c) ‘to meet out the expenses of the Prosecution Division’.

Mon krwar it should be ‘to meet the expenses’.  You meet out a punishment not an expense.  And meet out a punishment is ‘mete’So when you meet the expenses mon pa krwar nou bezwen annan sa mo ‘out’.  So with your permission we will delete it. 

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Lot seksyon ki SIFSA in eksprim konsern lo la i regarding 94 (2) (f).  Mon pou zis tyeke, see if it’s the right section.  Ok.  E konsern ki zot annan zot in demande se who shall be the innocent third party who would benefit from the Fund?

Pou Lasanble nou a kapab war poudir sa seksyon 94 (2) (f) i fer referans avek ‘paying innocent third parties for interest in the property as appropriate’ ok?  E zot lot konsern se who will establish the grievance?  FIU. 

So their question is the objective of the Fund has to be clear. So petet Minister Finans i kapab elucidate a sum on this issue.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Panel.  SS Payet.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair zis pou parey Minister in dir, anba seksyon 93 (3), ‘the Minister may be by regulations regulate administration and management of the Fund’.  So definitivman pou annan proper prosedir ki nou pou mete anba Regilasyon, pou fer sir ki administrasyon e manage the Fund i vreman kler.  So advise ki nou pe donnen se definitivman anba Regilasyon sa nou pou met en pe plis detay.  Mersi Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi SS.  Any other comments?  Onorab Henrie.

 

HON GERVAIS HENRIE

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mon pe get 94, 94 (2) (g) ‘authorized payment for public sector community projects and training of public sector’.  Mon apresye sa re-envestisman.  Selman letan mon lir public sector community projects mon war li en pe i annan en serten restriksyon.

Akoz nou pa met osi ‘involve’ ouswa zot, zot satisfe poudir i pou ladan social programs?  Akoz par egzanp mon pe mazin transparency initiative.

Li ki pe deza fer en travay kont koripsyon.  I kapab petet apply for something under this Fund pou li kapab mobiliz piblik kont sa size koripsyon.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel.  SS.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair mon krwar proposal from Onorab nou agree se  nou ava tir sa mo ‘public sector’ e nou kit ‘committed project’.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok.  Dakor.  Onorab Georges ou’n take note.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Fini fer Mr Chair.  What about training of the public sector?  Eski nou pou anvi osi training of more than the public sector or not?

 

MR SPEAKER

Panel.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

We leave it as just training?

 

MR SPEAKER

And training.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Yes. 

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes.  Onorab Afif.

 

HON AHMED AFIF

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman mon ti anvi zis demann Minis ler mon pe lir 94 (1) si i kapab eksplik nou sa bann larzan ki zot pou annan dan sa Fon pou larzan ki dizon zot in sezi oubyen in ariv krim ki zot in pran?  Prezan esansyelman bann depans anba la, mon pa mazinen i pou bann gro depans.

Me selman eski sa, sa bann depans i ganny kontrole par lekel?  Parske i pa vin depans anba Consolidated Fund sa.  Excess ki al dan Consolidated Fund.  Be par egzanp bann dimoun ki zot peye bann lezot depans ki zot pou fer lekel ki regulate tousala?  I ganny odite par okenn dimoun?  Se sa mon kestyon.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel.

 

MINISTER MAURICE LOUSTAU-LALANNE

Mesi Mr Chairman.  Mersi Onorab.  Onorab tou sa larzan pou vin pou mwan.  I kler dan Lalwa.

Me parey ou konnen nou annan bann mekanizm enportan ki nou bezwen respekte nou bezwen odit sa Fon eksetera.  So sa pou annan sa letap me tou larzan i pou mon.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Minister.  Onorab Afif.

 

HON AHMED AFIF

Mersi.  Zis,  mon konpran sa ki Minis pe dir.  Me zis mon oule dir li ladan i pa mete okenn landrwa poudir it’s been audited. I pa mete.  I ti a petet ti ava enportan annan en, en zis en laliny poudir sa.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi.  Panel.  Mr Rao.

 

 

ASSISTANT PRINCIPAL LEGAL DRAFTSPERSON  SRINIVASA RAO

 

That is purely  a procedure aspect.  That’s why it can be incorporated in the Regulations being made under the Sub-section 1 of sub-section 3 of section 93. 

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok.  Dakor.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi.  Mr Chair  mon swiv largiman  ki Onorab Afif pe raise.  Mon krwar nou annou, aprann from bann konsern bann size ki’n ganny raise.

Fer sa kler annou azout en Clause la 4 ‘and the ARF shall be audited by the individual as per Konstitisyon’.

 

MR SPEAKER

3 pa kouver?  ‘May by Regulations regulate the administration and management of the ARF’.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Non, akoz usually Mr Chairman, ki Mr Chairman ki nou’n war an se ki konsern auditing by the Auditor General the Clause is specific and clear and it’s in the law.  

It doesn’t come in a Regulation.  Mon krwar fodre avoidance of doubt and in, and to err on the side of caution, there is a standard Clause that we use.  The dafter can find the Clause and we can add it there.  And that will be the best option. Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you Onorab.  Eski petet Onorab Georges i annan sa Standard Clause ki nou mete with regards to Auditor.  E nou le fer antre la.  Minister.

 

MINISTER MAURICE LOUSTAU-LALANNE

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman si nou al lo 93 e dan sa sekans 1, 2, 3 i a preferab nou met Clause 3 kot nou pou koz lo odit apre sa 3 i a vin 4.  Kekfwa nou kapab propoz koumsa.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Minis.  Nou bezwen fer antre avan nou pran en vot.   Ok eski sa i akseptab?  ‘Asset Recovery Fund shall be audited by the Auditor General’.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

I am going to propose a wording if I miss anything Onorab Georges i  ava capture.  Si nou dir poudir ‘the accounts of the ARF shall be audited by the Auditor General in accordance with Article 158 (3) of the Constitution’. 

 

MR SPEAKER

  1. Ok dakor.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

On the board Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes.  Panel i dakor. Ok.  So nou’n ariv a lafen part 11.  Asset Recovery Fund ki konpri de Clause 93, 94 e ki mannyer in ganny amande.  Mon ava demann tou e i form par dan sa Bill.

Mon ava demann tou Manm ki an faver?  Okenn Manm ki kont?  Madanm Deputy Clerk.

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Chair.  22 Manm in vot an faver.  E personn kont.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Madanm Deputy Clerk.  Savedir part 11 sa Asset Recovery Fund as amended in ganny aprouve par Lasanble Nasyonal.   Bon nou mon krwar nou pou sanz panelist.

Ki mannyer mon pe konpran i annan de sanzman.  Nou ava fer li avan nou pran part 12, ‘’Miscellaneous Provision’’.  Bon nou, nou welcome Mr Rampal avek Ms Hall back lo panel pou nou pran sa lot part dan Bill ki devan nou.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  So nou pran part 12 which is Miscellaneous.  E nou premye konsern ki’n ganny eksprimen i lo section 100 (2) mon pa konnen si lezot Manm i annan okenn lezot konsern?

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  98 (1) e 98 (2) mon annan en pti konsern.  ‘Reporting entity Directors employee shall not be liable for prosecution for any accident in good faith’ that’s the norm.  Me la dan sa de nou’n war ‘prosecution or any civil litigation’.  That goes way, way beyond.  Ki mannyer ou pou kapab dir ki en dimoun ki santi ki in ganny, in ganny afekte pa pou kapab anmenn en case sivil kont sa bann dimoun?

E toultan nou’n dir, prosecution that’s fine.  Akoz this is a matter for the state.  State can deside.  Me ki mannyer ou kapab dir ki en, en dimoun pa kapab anmenn en case sivil even if the Act is done in good faith if it affects him?

Nou annan Lartik 1382, sub article 5 of the Civil Code which says ‘liability for intentional or negligent harm is a matter of Public Policy and cannot be excluded’ so.  Si prosecution napa problenm.  But what was the thinking behind relieving them of civil liability as well?  Sa mon pa konpran?

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel.  Yes Mr Stephenson.

 

RESIDENT ADVISOR KEVIN STEPHENSON

Thank you Mr Speaker.  I think the intention here is we want to try find that, that I think what’s critical if I understand the issues you raised we are talking about if they are acting in good faith there should be a civil obligation protection if you’re acting in good faith, in a sense that you don’t want supervisor authorities to do their job and they are acting in good faith. 

And they could face some civil legation, even when you are acting in good faith and they could their successful and civil obligation.  They could incur a lot of, you know, good Attorneys like yourself are quite costly and they could lose a lot of money.  So you don’t want them to be afraid to enforce their action if they are acting in good faith.  I think with this Good Faith Clause in this, I think protecting them from civil legation is appropriate.  Because I wouldn’t want supervisors to be leery about civil obligation even if they knew that they would ultimately win. 

It still  could be cost prohibited and finally getting a legal defense along those lines.  So I think as long as you are acting in good faith I think that, that it makes sense seems like a normal practice to me.  And I think that was the intent of this.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

I knew this is what was going to be the answer Mr Chair.  And I sympathize up to the point.  But you see we don’t have any civil legation brought against any Supervisory Authority is going to be defended by the Attorney General anyway. 

So they will not incur any pecuniary liability.  They, they’re going to be taken care off by the state.  The State will defend them, be there Lawyer so they won’t have to dig into their pockets.  And if they’re found liable, the state will pay.  Because the State is vicariously liable for their action.  But why should the person who is civilly affected not have the right to bring civil litigation?  Because what you are doing now, is you’re not saying he will be indemnified.  That’s fine he’s going to be indemnified anyway by the State. 

You are saying you cannot bring civil litigation what, which is, which today I can bring civil litigation against the Police who is acting in good faith.  If a Police Officer comes into my home and acting in good faith does something to damage my property, they’re acting in good faith.  But they damage my property, I sue them.  And I’ll win.  And the State will pay me.  So why should, that not be allowed?  That’s the point I’m trying to make.  You’re curtailing a right.  Which is not going to affect them, because they’re going to be indemnified because they will have been acting in the course of their employment by the Government. 

So therefore the Government will be liable for all pecuniary penalties.  What you don’t want them to do is to go to jail.  That’s fine, that’s why the prosecution is there.  But why, why prevent somebody who is affected notwithstanding by good faith performance not be able to recover?

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you Honorable Georges.  Mr Stephenson.

 

RESIDENT ADVISOR KEVIN STEPHENSON

I think subsequent to following that logic, then why are we saying that the management and staff shall be liable as opposed to the supervisor and entity? 

Because if they’re going to be, the Feds is going to be managed by the state, why are we specifying management staff, because they should be the entity, it should be the Central Bank or the FIU who has a legal entity, not the management of the staff.  Because then I could follow that logical along those lines there.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

The answer is very simple.  You have direct liability which is the individual.  And you have vicarious liability which is the Entity employing the individual.  You, either sue SPTC when a bus knocks over a pedestrian. 

I sue the driver, and the driver having been found liable, SPTC then in its vicarious activity pays.  That’s why it’s the staff.  You have to -.  It’s both.  One is directly liable for the Act and the other one is vicariously liable as the employer of the person committing the Act. 

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes Mr Stephenson.

 

RESIDENT ADVISOR KEVIN STEPHENSON

Yeah I understand that.  But, but I think there’s, in some jurisdiction there have been case law precedence were under the same kind of concept. 

But I think they moved away from this and try to protect.  It was because in some places where an actual individual was sued under the context that you are saying or they sued the individual and its represented by the State.  But it actually impeded that the individual be able to qualify for a mortgage because when they went for a credit report like this, they had all this lawsuits against them. 

Because they’re the ones that were facing the lawsuits.  So they tried to have this kind of protection Clause along those lines.  So, because actually there was, I think the, the Secretary of State.  Because every time a prisoner sued in the State of California for, you know treatment, they sued the Secretary of State of California.  He applied for a mortgage and he was disqualified by the financial institution because he had so, so many litigations against him.  So I think in that context  that they  were trying to protect.  I guess we’re trying to find that balance between. 

We don’t want people not to do their jobs, just because they’re afraid of civil litigation.  I think that’s why we had (that) go back to the good faith.  So I guess we are trying to struggle to find that, find that balance.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

I think it’s an American concepts that sits uneasily in our situation.  And I understand.  We see everyday.  When somebody who is an employee of the White House does something, he has to go, he or she has to go and retain counsel.  And be reliable to pay themselves.  That’s fine.  We’ll understand that in that context, but that’s not the context here.  Here and I think everybody agrees. 

That moment these people are working for the State, the State will step up and defend them, and if they are find liable, pay.  So there’s no risk.  They are fully and completely indemnified.   If in good faith, if they are in bad faith, that’s completely different matter.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman I am going to propose we remove the term ‘or in civil litigation from the Clause’.  

Because the reason being that you you need to have a check.  Whether you’re doing the Act in good faith, you need to have a check.  I mean the context here is very different from the US.  So  we will remove it from the law.  So that at least people know that they can have cause for action if the feel something that was done against them was not done in good faith. 

And then it would be up to the Authority in question to prove that it was not in good faith.  And if responsible then then that, that Authority will pay.  And if that Authority feels that the person that did the action, the staff or Member or officer did not do it in good faith, then you as the Authority can take action against that person.  So I think it’s – I know you want to protect what  they are doing. 

But don’t extend that protection to the point where you create the potential for abuse of office.  And then nobody can seek redress for that abuse of office.  It’s very important.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you Honorable.  Panel, nou agree pou nou tir ‘civil litigation’?  Are we in agreement?  Minister.

 

MINISTER MAURICE LOUSTAU-LALANNE

Mersi Mr Chairman.  The hour is late, we will agree thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you Minister.  So nou retir ‘civil litigation’. 

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Thank you Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok.  Annou kontinyen.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Yes Mr Chair.  It would be 90, 98 (1), 98 (2), 98 (3).

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes dan tou le trwa.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Ok.  So we were on the point raised by SIFSA, we go back to that point.  I hope nobody else has any, well I don’t see other Members raising  any query. 

So we go to Section 100 and specific sub-section 2.  And SIFSA has raised a concern whereby SIFSA strongly suggest that ‘the guidelines Regulations, appointments of personnel’ etcetera be changed in sync with the new law.  The agreement they say that there may be other officers appointed under the existing AML Act 2006 as amended, who may be under investigation under FPAC or Anti-Corruption Commission.  And the sub-section 2 they’re referring to, is ‘Notwithstanding the repeal of the Anti-Money Laundering Act, any appointments of personnel, Regulations, determinations, authorisations and guidelines made under that Act shall continue to operate until they amended, repealed or reissued under the provisions of this Act’. 

So basically SIFSA is saying that anyone who is holding an office currently within the new Act, there needs to be some changes made.  Given that some of them may be under investigation by the ACCS and perhaps other Law Enforcement Agency.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Panel.  Mr Stephenson.

 

RESIDENT ADVISOR KEVIN STEPHENSON

Apologies Mr Speaker.  But just to go back to 98(1), did we actually delete a 98 (1) the ‘’civil litigation?’’  Because 98(1) it refers to reporting entities. 

Are we applying that same logic to the reporting entity?  Because now we are assuming that the reporting entity, that they, they will cover the cost of the civil litigation for their employees?  Is that Government? That’s a statutory obligation as well?  Ok, splendid Mr Speaker.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok.  Panel, concerned raised on section 100 (2), Clause 100 (2). 

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair, kekfwa sa provizyon ki’n ganny mete dan 100 (2), sa saving provision ziskan ler Lalwa i ganny repeal, apre i reissue that in the provision made.

Mon krwar konsern lendistri ki pe dir tou bann zofisye ki pe ganny existing dan Lalwa, ki pe ganny investigate dan okenn lezot Lalwa.  E mon krwar sa i kouver byen anba prosedir PSO ki egziste ozordi.  So mon pa war kekfwa lentere pou nou enkli adisyonnel provizyon dan sa existing Lalwa.

Akoz sa bann dimoun pou kontinyen konman travayer.  Me however si i annan lenvestigasyon i ganny kouver anba prosedir PSO parey nou follow.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi SS.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Wi Mr Chair.  We’re notwithstanding that lo NAC i pou annan bann Law Enforcement Agency e ACCS e FCIU osi lo la.  So obviously si i annan okenn staff oubyen okenn dimoun ki anba lenvestigasyon, NAC would be, mon konnen ACCS pa pou al devwal son case. 

Me ACCS will object to having somebody ki deza annan en keksoz kont li to retain sa pozisyon si i pe fer serten travay an relasyon avek sa Lalwa.

So mon krwar i annan safeguards.   So mon krwar NAC  is the important safeguards ki annan an plas pou deal ek sa.  So avek sa Mr Chairman nou, nou move to the next point.

 

MR SPEAKER

First Schedule.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Yes.  So this is the First Schedule Part 2, Onorab Georges i annan en …

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes en moman Onorab.   Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Thank you Mr Chair.  Avan, before we move to the schedule, I just like to inform everybody that the transitional provisions that we agreed to yesterday will very likely   Clause 100 sub Clause 4.  We will introduce it in here so it serves as a whole.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.  Nou pe insert

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Yes.  So apre 3 i ava vin 4.

 

MR SPEAKER

Transition period.  Yes.  Ou, ou pe ganny son wording pou mete Onorab Georges?

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Wi nou, nou ti’n tonm dakor.  La mon krwar nou pou, nou pou mete Mr Chair.  100 (4), ‘Notwithstanding any other provision this Act every reporting Entity shall comply’ eksetera, parey nou ti’n dir.

E i annan 4 ki’n ganny aprouve yer,  we will leave these in here and the others will go. 

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you.  Mr Rampal i okYou good?  Ok, Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you Mr Chair.  Nou lo First Schedule part 2.  E concern is to remove as it is a repetition of part B, a license under the International Corporate Service Provider Act.  Mon krwar panel i konpran what is being asked.  Akoz i deza pe aparet laba.  So …

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes Ms Hall.

 

MANAGER EXTERNAL AFFAIRS SANDRA HALL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Bonzour tou dimoun.  Mon ti pou zis anvi fer resorti ki part B, sa referans to ICSP Act, ICSP Act anba part C of the First Schedule in linked avek the definition of DNFBP’s anba part 1 of the Act.

Kot i link avek the interpretation of DNFBPs.  E aktivite ki ganny antreprann par bann licensees anba sa Lalwa, i aktyelman ganny konsidere anba aktivite ki ganny linked to DNFBPsSo this is the reason why nou’n enkli li.  I pa en repetisyon, me plito i linked avek sa definisyon.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Ms Hall.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair.  Nou pe apros lafen, the next concern is in relation to paragraph 8The whole paragraph, according to the trade this is their concern, the whole paragraph should be removed in this entirety as the described activity shall be first licensed in order for the entity to be a reporting entity.  Activities over the reporting entities are licensed why this one is included without being licensed. 

So what they’re saying is everyone has a license.  So why is this one only included in that one?  Thank you Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Miss Hall.

 

MANAGER EXTERNAL AFFAIRS SANDRA HALL

Mersi Onorab.  Again sa i linked avek sa lesplikasyon ki mon’n donnen pli boner.  It’s about the activities and services linked to the definition of DNFBPs.  That is why it’s included under part C.

Akoz corporate service providers, the services they provide are considered to be en aktivite e servis ki ganny ofer by DNFBPs and not financial institutions.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair.  So explanation has been given.  The next concern is in relation to paragraph 1.2, to replace the term ‘liquidator’ with ‘insolvency liquidator’.  E mon krwar Onorab Georges ti eksplike ki any liquidator is an insolvency liquidator in the last meetingBut I think he has another point in regards to that.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Yes thank you Mr Chair.  There is no such animal as an insolvency liquidator.  Liquidator is a liquidator appointed under the Companies Act, the IBA or The Foundation Act. 

So  I would suggest that we stay with liquidator.  But there is another issue.  And that is that we now have an Insolvency Act 2013.  So maybe we should include it.  A lot of the Companies Act has now been transferred to the Insolvency Act.

In fact winding up is one of them where you appoint liquidators.  So should we have the Companies Act, Insolvency Act, International Business Act and Foundations Act?  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Thank you.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you Mr Chairman.  Paragraph 4, SIFSA recommends or suggest the license secretary should be listed as a reporting entity.

License secretary should be listed as a reporting entity.

 

MR SPEAKER

Panel.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair.  Kekfwa pou lo sa konsern license secretary, propozisyon osi ki nou ti pe fer anba part C se pou met number 9 konman resident agent the same definisyon parey i ete dan Beneficial Ownership Bill.  So,  i pou kouver sa license secretary as well.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

So you are making an addition to the, to part C.  So you are inserting a new, a new 9 in part C, correct?  Can you give us the wording for that.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Bonzour tou Manm Onorab.  Pou sa nou annan sa konsep anba biro BillWhich is the resident agent.  Given ki i en nouvo responsabilite ki zot sipoze kolekte lenformasyon lo beneficial ownership here in Seychelles. 

Equally i relevan pou zot bare en reporting Entity anba AML Act.  E landrwa apropriye ki zot pou tonbe zot, zot pou tonm anba sa part C dan Schedule.  E nou pe propoze to have en paragraph 9, which would state the resident agent.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mr Rao.

 

ASSISTANT PRINCIPAL LEGAL DRAFTSPERSON  SRINIVASA RAO

It should be resident agent under the Beneficial Ownership Act 2020.  It should be ‘Resident Agent under the Beneficial Ownership Act 2020’. 

 

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you Mr Chair.  And that says the secretary appointed under Section 179 of the Companies Act.  And that will cover the concern raised by, by the trade.  And then finally some very strong comments from SIFSA which I think has some merit.  SIFSA strongly recommends that car dealers be included as a reporting entity and the threshold should also be R50,000thousand. 

As there are product of this value, such as motorbikes which is well known in drug carrier business.  The monetary threshold cannot be defend for specific entities.  So going back  to what they are saying, so we’ve seen a lot of concern raised dan Lasanble.  Bokou Manm in koz lo la, sa bann scooter i ganny servi as carriers.  E menm ANB parfwa in koz lo la.

So sa ki SIFSA pe dir, bann car dealers osi i devret ganny enkli.  E threshold i devret parey. Akoz sa bann scooter i vann mwens ki, ki R50,000mil, 32,000mil, R33,000mil, so

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes.  Thank you Onorab.  Panel. SS.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair, kekfwa, baze lo email ki SIFSA ti reanvoye Lendi swar, zot ti disregard the comments ki zot ti fer lo sa konponan.  But however zis pou advise ki car dealers i anba high value dealers definisyon.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you Mr Chair.  Malerezman mon pa’n ganny sa emailSo mon’n go according to sa rekomandasyon ki mon krwar i fer sans.  E obviously then Minister Finans in fer le neseser pou eksplike ki i annan sa eleman.

So  the last one was going to be recommendation for the Sixth Schedule, be mon krwar nou’n fini handle the Sixth Schedule depi boner.  Because we talked about, sort of going from a listing approach to an open crimes approach and then there would be mon krwar then a few other amendments that needs to be made.  But we have finished with the Schedule and the comments  given to us. 

Thank you Mr Chair.  Onorab Georges petet i annan ankor enn de keksoz adisyonnel i oule azoute.  And Mr Chair we’ve been also been given a proposition for amendment to insert a proposed definition of Funds in the law.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok.  Nou, eski nou pran en vot lo part 12?  Wi?  Nou pou pran en vot Part 12 Miscellaneous Provisions ki konpri Clause 95 ziska 100, ziska 100 as amended. 

Ok, mon ava demann ki form par dan sa Bill.  Mon ava demann tou Manm ki an faver?  Okenn Manm ki kont?  Madanm Deputy Clerk.

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mon’n rikord 24 Manm ki’n vot an faver.  E personn kont.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Madanm Deputy Clerk.  Savedir Part 12 Miscellaneous Provisions in ganny aprouve par Lasanble.  I annan sa propozisyon pou sa, pou insert oubyen pou zafer Funds, meaning of Funds, i pou tonm dan panelPanel.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Panel amendment Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Panel.  Yes, ok.  Panel.  Ms Hall.

 

MANAGER EXTERNAL AFFAIRS SANDRA Hall

Mersi Mr Chair.  Yer nou’n ganny en diskisyon avek nou bann counterpart, ESAAMLG most specifically.  E zot in re, zot in fer en rekomandasyon ki nou amann nou definisyon of Funds ki i pa zis kouver banking activities but all activities.  Nou realize ki Lasanble, the Committee has already approved the interpretation part, me selman we are just making an appeal ki zot konsider the new proposal, a new interpretation for Funds, to mean ‘assets of every kind whether corporeal or incorporeal, tangible or intangible, moveable or immovable, however acquired, and legal documents or instruments in any form including electronic or digital evidencing title to or interest in such assets’.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok, okenn komanter from the floor?  Non?  Eski we need a vote on this.  Ok?  Eski nou kapab pran en vot, anba ki Seksyon i pou antre li, anba ki…?  Wi, ok definitions.  Dakor.

Bon nou pou pran, eski nou kapab pran en vot lo sa lamannman ki’n ganny propoze par panel.  I tonm anba Definition Section ant section 2, i donn deskripsyon ‘Funds.’  Mon ava demann tou Manm ki an faver? Okenn Manm ki kont?  Madanm Deputy Clerk.

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mon rikord 22 Manm ki’n vot an faver.  E personn kont.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Madanm Deputy Clerk.  Savedir sa lamannman in ganny aprouve par Lasanble.  Yes SS Payet.  SS.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair.  Mon konnen i annan zis en lot provizyon ki nou’n diskite, mon konnen i ti en konsern yesterday lo sa issue 30 years ki mon krwar Onorab in mansyonnen ankor this morning. 

47 (3), e nou pe propoze ki sa i specific for Banks, Bureau De Change, Insurance, Insurance Companies apre Securities Exchange Infrastructures. 

So si nou kapab met en nouvo provizyon anba 47 (3), ki nou kapab fer li vin 47 (3) (1) apre nou a met en lot pti provizyon 47 (3) (2) anba.  Zis pou fer li specific pou sa bann kategori.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes Onorab Ferrari.

 

HON JEAN-FRANCOIS FERRARI

Zis Mr Speaker poudir ki Onorab Andre ki’n bezwen sorti la ti that was one of the point ki he wanted to move.  And nou remersye ou pou entertain sa pwen silvouple.  Mersi bokou.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes ok.  Ok okenn komanter.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Si SS i kapab zis remind nou of his amendment Mr Chair nou ava, nou ava fer.

 

MR SPEAKER

Wi.  SS, the wording.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair kekfwa mon a ganny lasistans the drafters.  I pou 47 (3).  E nou propoz sa 47 (3) i vin (1) apre nou met en lot konponan.

 

 

ASSISTANT PRINCIPAL LEGAL DRAFTSPERSON  SRINIVASA RAO

Sub-Section 3 reads like this ‘Notwithstanding any other law, the records mention in sub-section 1 shall be kept for a period of 30 years in digital form, from the date on which the business relationship ceases, relating to Banks, Bureau de Changes, Insurance and Securities, Security Institutions’.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mr Chair.   Sa ki SS in dir se ki oule sa provizyon apply zis pou bann Labank, sa.   Me relating to i diferan la.  Non, relating to would mean transactions ki sa dimoun pe fer ki relate to avek Labank, relate to sa.

So you want it to be applicable to Banks.  So ou bezwen dir, or to just simply say ‘sub-section (3) shall apply to, and then ou ava liste sa bann ki i apply to.  Ou pa kapab dir ‘relating to.’  Then it would mean ki si mon’n fer tranzaksyon mwan, mon en avoka mon’n fer transfer avek en Labank.  Mon bezwen still gard sa rikord.  Is that what you want to say? 

Does it apply to Banks as an entity or does it apply to transactions that I make to Banks, to Money Changers etcetera.  Either you mean it as an entity.  But if it’s relating to, it doesn’t convey the same meaning.  So we have to reword that. 

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Yes let’s do so.  If it’s just Banks and Bureau De Change we don’t need 1 and 2.  We can just say ‘by Banks and Bureau De Change’.  It’s simple as that.  Or if there are more, by the following entities and we list the entities. 

There will be 4 of them.  Yes and we will do it here.  And then and we don’t need a separate, fine, ok?  So we’ll get the list.  Thanks, Bureau De Change.  We’ll just have to get the, the wording whether we call it Banks or financial institutions or whatever.  And will just put those 4 in there.  If you trust us, we can pass the amendment and then will put it in. 

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok dakor.  Bon nou ava pran en vot lo sa lot lamannman.

E nou trust ki Onorab Georges avek legal draftsperson will do the correct wording.  Nou avan pran  lo sa lamannman ankor.  Tou Manm ki an faver?  Okenn Manm ki kont?  Madanm Deputy Clerk.

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Chair.  24 Manm in vot an faver.  E personn kont.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Madanm Deputy Clerk.  Any other comments oubyen lamannman avan nou move dan lot stage?   Ok.  Non.  Bon si non nou ava bouz dan lot Staz.  E mon ava demann Sarge pou move Mace pou nou fer en Third Reading.

Nou’n fini vot lo tou bann lamannman par Seksyon, par diferan part.  So we don’t have to take a vote on the Bill as amended.  Vot in fini ganny pran.  So mon ava demann en Motion for Third Reading. 

 

HON CHARLES DE COMMARMOND

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Bonzour Mr Speaker.  Bonzour Minis ek ou delegasyon, e tou Manm Onorab, e tou dimoun ki a lekout.

Mr Speaker anba Order 71 (1) lo Standing Order mon oule move ki Anti-Money Laundering and Countering the Financing of Terrorism Bill, 2020 as amended i ganny lir en Trwazyenm Fwa.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab De Commarmond.  Okenn Manm ki segonde?  Yes Onorab Ernesta.

 

HON PAUL ERNESTA

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker bonzour.  Minis ek ou delegasyon ek bann koleg Onorab bonzour.  Mr Speaker Mosyon i ganny segonde.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Ernesta.  Bon nou ava pran en vot pou Third Reading.  Tou Manm ki an faver?  Okenn Manm ki kont?  Madanm Deputy Clerk.

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Chair.  24 Manm in vot an faver.  E personn kont.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Madam Deputy Clerk.  Nou kapab ganny en Formal Third Reading.

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Speaker.  ‘This Act may be cited as the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering the Financing of Terrorism Act 2020.  And shall come into operation on such date as the Minister may, by notice in the Gazette appoint and different dates may be appointed for different provisions of the Act’.  Mersi Mr Speaker.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Madanm Deputy Clerk.  Savedir Bill No. 2 of 2020 in ganny aprouve par Lasanble Nasyonal.  Yes Onorab Ferrari.

 

HON JEAN-FRANCOIS FERRARI

Mr Speaker I would like to make a suggestion  in the interest of time management.  Why don’t we break now and come back at 1pm?  Instead of, instead of going out having a cup of coffee and coming back again.

 

MR SPEAKER

Bon Minis pou bezwen prezant the Bill, ok.  I pa en gro Bill.  Si nou agree nou retourn 11.30.  Minis i prezant son Bill, ok.  Si i annan enn oubyen de ki oule fer en pti lentervansyon, then we come back at 2 parey labitid.

E nou fer nou bann travay;- i annan bann lamannman and all thatOk.  So nou, nou break nou a retournen 11.30.  Ok 11.30 pou Minis prezant the next BillThank you.

 

 

(BREAK)

 

 

MR SPEAKER

Bon nou ava kontinyen nou travay e nou pou pran 2enm Bill ki devan nou.  Beneficial Ownership Bill 2020 mon ava demann, mon ava ganny en Mosyon, Motion for Second Reading.

 

HON CHARLES DE COMMARMOND

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker anba Order 64 (2) nou Standing Order mon le move ki Beneficial Ownership Bill 2020 i ganny lir en Dezyenm Fwa.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab De Commarmond.  Okenn Manm ki segonde.  Yes Onorab Valmont.

 

HON JUDE VALMONT

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Bonzour.  Bonzour tou koleg Onorab, tou ki pe swiv.  Motion seconded Mr Speaker.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Valmont.  Bon mon ava envit Minis pou prezant pou entrodwi son BillMinister laparol i pou ou.

 

MINISTER MAURICE LOUSTAU-LALANNE

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, Onorab Leader Zafer Gouvernman dan Lasanble Nasyonal, Onorab Manm Lasanble Nasyonal, lepep Seselwa bonzour.  Mr Speaker parey mon fer resorti dan mon lentrodiksyon pou Anti-Money Laundering and Countering the Financing of Terrorism Bill, sa Prozedlwa Beneficial Ownership ki mon pe prezant avek Lasanble li osi relye avek adres bann mezir kont blansisaz larzan e pou protez sekter finansyel kont labi, enkli pou asir latransparans dan taks.

Avan al pli lwen mon a pran sa loportinite pou eksplik en pe plis an detay sa ki Beneficial Ownership i reprezante.  I annan pou bi met o kler lekel propriyeter sa bann antite, lekel ki kontrol sa bann tranzaksyon e lekel ki benefisye atraver tranzaksyon ki ganny fer lo non sa bann antite.  Nesesite pou sa Lezislasyon i vin pli kler e evidan kan ou konsidere bann Antite ki ganny formen avek bann striktir konpleks kot plizyer lakonpannyen Trusts, Fondasyon eksetera i enkli dan bann ownership chain parey zot ganny apele.

I annan de ka kot letablisman bann tel Antite i kapab ganny zistifye.  Me i annan osi lenstans kot zot ganny mal servi pou maske bann aktivite ki ilegal.  Pou konbat sa kalite  aktivite e konbat e protez sistenm finansyel enternasyonal, i esansyel ki annan latransparans konsernan beneficial ownership sa bann Antite e laranzman.

Sa konsep beneficial ownership osi pa enn ki toutafe nouvo anba nou Lalwa Anti-Money Laundering an fors aktyelman konman parti bann lenformasyon ki bezwen ganny kolekte e asire se lenformasyon apropo bann beneficial owners vizavi bann kliyan en lobligasyon parey i form parti nou International Corporate Service Providers Act.

Dan plizyer domenn Sesel i bezwen tenir kont bann standar enternasyonal ki pa toultan byen armonize.  Me dan tou sa standar i annan en tenm santral sa se promosyon latransparans lo sa size beneficial ownership dan tou lenstans.  E sipor pou bann mezir ki donn Lotorite konsernen akse avek lenformasyon apropriye pandan zot bann lenvestigasyon.

Parey mon deza mansyonnen nou’n form par en groupman pei dan Les e Sid Lafrik ki’n ganny etabli pou konbat blansisaz larzan dan sa rezyon ESAAMLG.  Rapor en 2enm legzersis evalyasyon ki sa group ti antreprann e ki ti ganny adopte par Konsey Minis sa rezyon an Septanm 2018 isi menm Sesel ti atir latansyon lo serten febles dan sa framework ki ti’n ganny adopte lo size beneficial ownership.

Sa i annan en lefe advers lo rating Sesel pou son nivo compliance and effectiveness.  Nou bezwen osi tenir kont 2enm vole Peer Review Report ki’n ganny prezante dan Forum Global OECD lo size latransparans e lesanz lenformasyon lo taks.  Li osi in atir latansyon lo serten febles dan nou sistenm legal e nou lezislasyon.  Ki fer li tre difisil pou nou ganny lenformasyon neseser lo beneficial ownership.  San sa lenformasyon nou pa kapab annan sa nivo latransparans ki nou ti ava swete dan nou sistenm taks.  I neseser alor ki nou adres sa bann febles e se sa ki sa Bill devan zot i oule fer.

I annan provizyon ki a permet nou idantifye e verifye tou bann lenstans beneficial ownership an kontan bann konpanny IBCs, Trust, Fondasyon Partnership, Lasosyasyon, PCCs e CSL.  Sa Bill i osi egzize ki tou bann i lenstans konsernen i mentenir en rezis lenformasyon ki azour.  Zot bann lobligasyon pou raporte ek sa legzizans i byen detaye.  An plis ki  sa Bill ki devan zot i anvizaz formasyon en Seychelles Beneficial Ownership Database ki zis bann Lotorite dezinyen a kapab ganny akse avek.

Nou rekonnet ki sa bann kalite lenformasyon i tre sansib e mezir pou asir sekirite e konfidansyalite i bezwen an preokipasyon primer dan tou sa ki nou fer.   Financial Intelligence Unit FIU ava annan responsabilite pou gard sa database e fer sir ki i reste azour.  Zis bann Lotorite konpetan e Lotorite ki anfors Lalwa ki ava annan akse ek sa database.  Pou asire ki Lalwa e bann mezir ki nou met an plas i ganny swiv e ki i fer en diferans, i ava osi enportan ki nou enpoz bann sanksyon ki anliny ek gravite bann lofans e ki dekouraz aktivite ki sispe.

Dan preparasyon sa Bill a Novanm e Desanm 2019 nou’n pran letan pou konsilte tou bann group ki konsernen direkteman se a dir bann stakeholders e nou tenir kont zot bann sizesyon.

Komite Nasyonal kont Blansisaz Larzan NAC in diskit longman lo sa Bill e dan zot deliberasyon zot in analiz son bann lenplikasyon dan en konteks Nasyonal ensi ki enternasyonal.  I esansyel ki nou adopte sa Lezislasyon pou nou ariv an konformite avek bann standar enternasyonal.  E ki nou kontinyen montre nou determinasyon e volonte pou konbat blansisaz larzan lo en lesel mondyal.

Anpese ki larzan i ganny servi pou finans aktivite teroris e siport bann linisyativ pou asire ki annan latransparans dan lekspozisyon taks.  Mr Speaker letan pa dan nou faver pou fer en desizyon lo sa Bill ESAAMLG in donn en dele byen sere pou enplimant sa Lezislasyon.

Si nou oule ki nou tenir sa an kont kot nou pou reassess pou nou deside si nou pou revwar nou rating lo compliance and effectiveness.  I lo baz sa bann konsiderasyon Mr Speaker ki mon soumet sa Beneficial Ownership Bill, 2020 pou konsantman Lasanble Nasyonal. Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Minis Loustau-Lalanne.  Bon deba i ouver lo merit e prensip zeneral sa Bill ki devan nou Beneficial Ownership Bill 2020.  Okenn Manm ki oule entervenir.  Yes Onorab John Hoareau

 

HON JOHN HOAREAU

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Bonzour Mr Speaker.  Bonzour Minis ek ou delegasyon, enkli tou bann lezot Manm, tou dimoun ki a lekout.  Mr Speaker sa Bill ki devan ou pe anmenn 3 keksoz tre enportan.

Pe amenn idantifikasyon, verifikasyon e record keeping.  Parey Minis in adrese i en Bill ki’n war son legzistans apre en rapor en Mutual Evaluation Report ki ti ganny fer par ESAAMLG.  E sa Bill li menm i pou si oule konplemant zefor ki pe ganny fer atraver AML Bill e lezot bann Bill ki pou vini ki, ki nou apel sa bann Consequential Bills ki pou met annord tou keksoz pou fer ki Sesel son compliance rating i vin enn ki, ki fully compliant olye partially compliant.  Mr Speaker ozordi krim organize in pran en lanpler si oule ase enportan ki i enportan ki nou annan sa bann Lezislasyon byen detaye, pou kapab anpes sa bann keksoz arive dan nou ziridiksyon.

Me parkont i annan enn de pti lenkyetid mon annan lo sa Bill ki mon ti a kontan ki Minis ler i fer son summing-up i pas en pti pe lo la an revi ki a permet mon deside si i annan serten kontribisyon pou mon fer anver lamannman sa Bill.  Premye keksoz mon ti a kontan petet Minis i adrese se Seksyon 8 (1) i koz lo retention period sa Clause ki koz lo retention period.  Sa dan sa Bill i met li a prerogative Minis pou li deside kantite letan ki sa bann detay, sa bann data i kapab ganny kite par bann, par bann resident agents.

Alor mwan, mon pe mazinen si sa i ganny fer anliny avek nou Lalwa Nasyonal ki petet ki preskrir 7an si sa ti kapab ganny desid lo la si pou kapab kit li 7an olye kit li konman en prerogative pou en Minis deside.  Si demen Minis i war i neseser 7an well 8an, 10an mon pa konnen pou, zis pou kit li anliny ek bann serten norm ki nou annan dan nou pei.  Petet Minis i kapab donn nou rezondet akoz sa 7an?  Dezyenmman anba 8 (2) kot ki koz lo struck off en lakonpannyen lo rezis.  Apre ki in ganny insolvency 8 (2) li i, i donn 7an apre ki bann legal arrangements ki’n ganny fer ki, ki FSA i kapab annan 7an avan ki i retir sa dimoun lo lalis sa, sa konpannyen lo lalis.

E mwan, mon dir mon, mon pe get li si sa osi i ganny met anliny avek sa ki mon’n fek diskite avan vedir pou 8 (1) en, en letan en dele 7an.  Mr Speaker lo  part (3) sa Bill mon ti a kontan konnen ki arive ler en dizon en resident agent oubyen en CSP i defunct in arête et an fonksyon e ki arive avek sa bann data ki i anmase?  Lekel  ki vin custodian sa bann data?  Akoz i paret mwan ki ladan i pa fer mansyonn sa so petet si i ti kapab eklersi nou si i tonm anba dan en lot Act oubyen ki mannyer sa i ganny mentenir?

Mr Speaker dan Clause 11 (1) osi.  11(1) akoz ki laplikasyon en resident agent pou  si dizon ki aplikasyon i ganny fer ki en konpannyen i war ki en resident agent pa pe rectify lenformasyon ki’n ganny donnen, i bezwen al Supreme Court pou sa en desizyon ganny pran?  Mon pe demande akoz ki nou, olye annan sa birokrasi pou al Supreme Court pou li pran plizyer letan akoz sa pa ganny fer par son competent authority rather ki i al Supreme Court?  So ki petet si aprezan i annan okenn appeal pou ganny fer par swa sa resident agent si i annan keksoz ki santi petet dizon li i krwar sa lenformasyon i dwat, me sa konpannyen sa, sa beneficial owner i santi ki son lenformasyon i fo.

At this point se mon pe prezimen ki i devret competent authority ki donn en desizyon ki pou fer me si aprezan i annan en appeal pou fer la prezan mon pe mazinen ki i kapab al kot Supreme Court pou pran en desizyon final.  Mr Speaker anba part 2 anba sa Punitive Clause ki pou mon i sant sa, sa Lalwa li menm se sa rikord sa database record.  So si en resident agent pa pe mentenir son bann rikord penalti i ganny fer ki i pey R50,000mil.

Me mwan, mon pe demande ki akoz sa i sitan enportan i, i the backbone si oule sa Lezislasyon alor akoz ki i pa ganny pini osi pou li be unfit for the purpose?   Vedir son license i ganny revokeSo mwan, mon ti pe zis pe, pe promot sa kalite largiman akoz sa si nou, nou by this alone nou kapab vin et in compliance.  So i sitan enportan ki they have to get it right at the first instance.

Mr Speaker dernyen pwen ki mon ti a kontan ki Minis ti ava adrese se osi lo sa size beneficial owner son definisyon ki’n ganny mete.

Mon’n fer en pti resers en pti pe lo bann lezot ziridiksyon e parey in ganny dir yer mon konnen poudir SS in pronons li en pti pe lo la ler Onorab Pillay ti pe sey demann sa kestyon why ki sa threshold 25poursan ki anba Schedule, First Schedule mon krwar.  SS in eksplike poudir ki en national risk assessment ki pou kapab determinen me zot, zot in pran bann standar pli o pou met li a 10poursan.  Me ennler mon krwar osi petet nou bezwen sey stike the balance pou nou pa sey touf sa, touf sa sekter li menm.

I vin en pti pe parey nou dir ler sat i ganny bwiyante i per delo fre.  Me at the same time nou bezwen balanse poudir nou, nou pe osi kapab an fezan sa pe pous nou lekor out of the competition itself.  Si nou pe met bann standar  ki pli bon ki bon ki ou kapab dir ki pli o ki o.  So petet sa ti kapab ganny revwar osi.  E i annan serten ziridiksyon i al en pti pe pli devan pou defini executive control kisisa executive control par en beneficial owner.  Kot i koz menm lo bann voting rights bann vot si ou annan 25poursan lenfliyans dan ou vot, dan lakonpannyen ki ou kapab appoint oubyen remove bann Board of Directors, bann Manm lo Board of Directors.

I annan ki koz lo osi bann absolute right and conditions pou exercise legal function.  So zot defini en pti pe kisisa executive control ki mon pa tro war dan sa Bill in ganny defini.  Mr Speaker se avek sa ki ti mon kontribisyon ki mon ekspekte petet Minis ti ava fer serten klarifikasyon lo sa bann size ki mon’n leve dan son summing- up.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Hoareau.  Mon ava pas laparol avek Onorab Waven William.

 

HON WAVEN WILLIAM

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker mon pa pou tro long lo sa Bill, mon pou apir ki Minis in eksplik byen.  Rezondet akoz ki sa Bill bezwen ganny pase.  Me selman mon ti a kontan demann Minis pou donn nou en garanti ouswa donn nou en pti pe detay akoz mon anvi kestyonn en pti pe nou kapasite.

Akoz letan mon pe analiz bann zistwar lepase e an menm tan lo lefe ki sa sekter i vreman dinamik mon anvi ki Minis i donn nou sa garanti ouswa dir nou ki Gouvernman ouswa son Minister pe fer pou fer sir ki sa bann sekter ki deal avek sa zot pe regard dan capacity building.

E ki nou pa pe war nou ki letan Lasanble i pas sa bann lamannman ouswa sa bann Prozedlwa, ki epi lo kote pou manage sa bann Prozedlwa nou, nou war poudir i annan bann, bann febles.  So mon ti kontan ki Minis dir nou en pti pe egzakteman ki bann febles ki zot annan e ki zot pe fer pou asire ki bann sekter ki annan pou fer pou manage sa bann Prozedlwa aplik li zot ganny lasistans.  E mon lot pwen konsern se Minis vizavi sa bann lenformasyon ki zot pe rode, ouswa ki sa bann dimoun pou donnen bann antite.

Ki mannyer zot evalye lotantisite sa bann lenformasyon vizavi avek sa prensip latransparans.  Akoz sa pou mon la i annan ankor en pti pe doutans lo la.  So Mr Speaker avek, avek sa de mo mon ava dir Minis ki mon aport mon sipor pou sa Prozedlwa.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab William.  Bon mon a donn laparol Onorab Gervais Henrie.

 

HON GERVAIS HENRIE

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Bonzour tou dimoun.  Mr Speaker sa ki nou pe koz lo la ozordi pou benefis nou bann constituent ki a lekout se en Lalwa ki fer provizyon dezormen kot dan en sityasyon kot en dimoun i …

I annan kek biznes ou propriyete selman sa bann zafer i pa dan son non.  I annan swa bann dimoun ki prezant li konman Direkter lo bann lakonpannyen ouswa zot tenir son shares, so son biznes i lo non en lot dimoun.  Mon war li i osi senp ki sa e depi yer nou pe dir poudir i annan tou sa bann zafer ki nou pe koze i konsern plis bann Eropeen;- parske ozordi dan lemonn zot dir ki parmi sa 200 dimoun pli ris dan lemonn 30poursan dan sa 200 pli ris zot larzan i, i kekpar ki par dan zot pei natal kot zot sipoze ganny takse lo zot fortin.

So zot pe ganny kasyet zot larzan e alor zot met zot larzan ayer e dann bann Trust, dan bann Fondasyon, dan bann lakonpannyen ki lezot dimoun ki reprezant zot.  So i osi senp ki sa.  Prezan nou, nou pe get sa dan konteks sekter finansyel enternasyonal.  Me annou zis retourn en pti pe dan konteks lokal.  Dan Sesel ozordi i annan bann dimoun ki swa zot bann politically exposed person ki annan bann koneksyon politik ki annan bann biznes nou konnen zot annan be selman zanmen sa bann biznes nou pa pou zanmen war lo zot non.  Dimoun ki dan drog ou tande entel i annan car hire, i annan landrwa ki lwe selman ou pou al rode i pa lo son non.

Be i vin dan bann menm sityasyon sa ki nou pe koz lo la so pou mon an menm tan ki nou pe amenn sa Lalwa mon krwar pou en pe letan nou ti’n merit met lord dan nou prop konteks lokal.  Be selman i ava vini avek letan mon prezimen.  Prezan dan sa konteks enternasyonal kot nou pe koze nou’n tann diferan lorganizasyon nonmen depi yer OECD, Linyon Eropeen, FATF.  Donk i annan sa presyon ki sa bann lorganizasyon pe dir poudir i annan bann standar enternasyonal ki bann pei ki ofer sa bann servis finansyel i bezwen oblize met an aplikasyon.

E pou mwan i bon san bon akoz an menm tan ki lemonn pe bouz dan en direksyon pou nou met en pe lord dan sa vilaz global selman an menm tan i domaz ki nou koleg Onorab Gill pa la pou pret en pe son bann retorik anti-kolonyal.  I en zafer ki zot pe zis vini met en kouto anba ou, anba ou lagorz e met en presyon lo ou dir avek en Lasanble parey nou poudir non ou bezwen pran sa Bill pli vitman posib kan nou ti kapab pe fer en lot keksoz.

E petet eski nou ti’n pare la a sa moman dan nou devlopman pou nou aplik sa Lalwa parey mon koleg Onorab William fek leve kapasite nou bann diferan lenstitisyon pou deal ek sa Lalwa, mon ava retourn lo la taler konman bann defi ki nou pou bezwen fer fas avek.  E Mr Speaker selman nou pou bezwen fer li si nou pa pou fer li i annan bann sanksyon ki kapab antre e letan bann sanksyon i antre i pou enpakte lo nou servis finansyel, lo nou lekonomi esansyelman e nou pa anvi konman en Lasanble responsab war ki nou standar lavi i desann, akoz sa bann sanksyon ki ganny mete lo nou konman en pti pei.

Ki parey yer mon dir nou annan zis pwason ek tourizm atraver labote nou pei pou nou viv.  Donk kantmenm nou pe sey debat nou napa swa, nou bezwen al dan sa direksyon.  Be selman having said ki nou napa swa mon a zis partaz avek zot enpe dan konteks lezot ziridiksyon en pe ptipti parey Sesel.  E partikilyerman bann ki konekte ek Langleter.

Langleter zis avan ki i ti pe sorti dan EU son House of Commons i degaze i pas en Lalwa e sa Lalwa i ti pe obliz i annan de group pei, i annan sa ki zot apel British Overseas Territories i annan 14 zot, apre i annan 3 ki apel bann Crown Dependencies.  Poudir nou pou pas en Lalwa ki sa Lalwa pou osi aplik pou zot.

Bannla i kriy lasasen i dir non, non ou pa kapab pas en Lalwa dan en Parlman kot nou, nou pa ganny reprezante i annan en laranzman konstitisyonnel ant Langleter avek nou e si ou obliz nou, nou pou amenn ou Ankour.  Selman plis presyon li ti pe met lo sa 14 pei ki apel British Overseas Territories e bannla in kriy lasasen.  La nou pe koz bann pei parey bann pti zil ki nou apel Cayman Islands, British Virgin Islands bann keksoz koumsa.

E ki nou’n war dan sa 14 Cayman Islands par egzanp li i dir lannen pase, i dir non ok mon dakor pou al dan sa direksyon si standar enternasyonal selman mon pou legislate an 2022 e i pou vin an aplikasyon 2023 deswit ki bannla i fer i lo blacklist ansanm avek nou.  Sa kalite bullying ki sa zans pe fer, tandis ki sa 3 ki bann Crown Dependency i annan Isle of Man, Jersey avek Guernsey zot personn pa pe koz lo zot, zot.  Konmsi i annan de pwa de mezir.   Pou mwan i konmsi menm si mon bezwen lev mon lanmen  pou aprouv sa Bill.  

Selman mon oule mon bann constituency dan Mont Buxton i konnen poudir mon pa fer li avek mon leker akoz nou’n ganny apiye avek en miray i annan en kouto anba nou lagorz nou bezwen fer.  Nou tro ptipti pou nou sey lager avek sa bann dimoun.  Selman an menm tan nou ti kapab balans nou zafer ton zot bezwen nou ton zot sirtou bann Espanyol i dir ki sa bann meyer Sesel.  So nou ti kapab servi sa konman en bargaining chip avek zot.  Be selman Lasanble bannla in kit nou net an deor sa konversasyon ziska ler nou bezwen ratifye sa lagreman.

Mr Speaker dernyen pwen ki mon ti oule koz lo la se zisteman bann defi.  Sa Lalwa pou pase prezan mon le konn ki Minis ava dir nou dan son rezimen kapasite bann antite pou zot asire poudir sa, sa Lalwa la i ava ganny aplike to the letter.  E sa i vin tou sa bann lalis sa bann konpannyen IBCS bann Lasosyasyon pou zot gard bann rikord e probableman krwar ki Gouvernman i ava mazinen pou fer en pti pe capacity building, pou asire ki zot konpran sa Lalwa byen dan bann mwan ki pe vini.  Dezyenmman mon le Minis i dir nou ki lenpak sa Lalwa pou annan lo nou ziridiksyon konman en ziridiksyon atiran pou bann lakonpannyen dezormen vin anrezistre isi.

Parske zot pe gete zot poudir be Sesel la in pas pou li tandis ki BVI pa ankor alor mon tay laba pou en pe letan.  So ki kalite lenpak ki i pou annan dan son pozitiv eski vreman i pou montre nou poudir nou pe swiv standar enternasyonal e bann dimoun ki vreman pa pe fer nanryen mal i annan ki pa pe fer nanryen mal dan sa, dan sa sekter alors zot pou le vini?  Me bann ki vreman annan en keksoz pou kasyet zot pa pou taye?  E ki poursantaz nou ekspekte ki pou taye?  Sa i 2enm defi.

3enm touzour mon kontan pwen ki Onorab Hoareau in leve sa zafer 10poursan.  Sa zafer 10poursan parske mon’n fer en pti letour pa tou i pei ki mon’n kapab war me par egzanp bann ki 25poursan La France, Lalmanny, Lenn, Irlann, Itali e zot, zot parmi sa bann blok apard Lenn zot parmi sa blok Linyon Eropeen, ki  pe met presyon lo nou.  Menm serten pei ki dan G8 osi zot 25poursan Larzantin, Armenya i 20poursan.  Enn, sa ti bann statistik 2017 in kapab sanze mon ava admet.  Enn ki mon war i vreman ba mon asire i korek sa ki mon’n war se Izrael li i 5poursan.

Donk akoz nou, nou pe pran 10poursan mon ti ava kontan ankor sa zot eksplik nou sa rezondet si tandans enternasyonal i 25poursan akoz nou, nou bezwen desann osi ba?  Dernyen pwen ki mon ti ava kontan nou koz lo la se sa laspe en rezis konfidansyel ouswa en rezis piblik.  I annan bann literatir ki dir ou poudir ki piblik zisteman parey mon dir i annan bokou dimoun ki dan sa sekter ki pa pe fer ki pe met son larzan ayer, ki pa neseserman pe fer en keksoz mal e pou li alor i napa nanryen pou li kasyet rezis piblik i promouvwar latransparans ki nou osi nou pe koz bokou lo la konmela.

Donk i annan dimoun ki ok avek a pubic register.  Sa zafer maintain in confidentiality bokou pei in adopte li.  Malta, Irlann, Luxembourg, Lithuania, Lalmanny i konfidansyel me Langleter, Estonia, Denmark ki parmi bann ki piblik.  E osi konfidansyel mon krwar i Sengapour, Hong Kong, bann pei konmsa.  Me selman i annan en deba ki pe deroule ozordi eski nou kit li piblik ouswa nou fer li konfidansyel?  Me selman an menm tan apre i annan en lot keksoz ki mon war Germany.  Lalmanny zot kree different level of access, akoz lekel ki pou rode sa bann lenformasyon i annan diferan kategori dimoun.

Mon konman en zournalis mon ti ava kontan konnen poudir dan Sesel i ava annan en kategori access for journalist akoz swa mon menm mon ki ava enterese pou kree en lartik ouswa i annan bann dimoun aletranze ki ava dir avek mon be rod sa lenformasyon pou mon dan Sesel.  Donk ki kalite level of access ki pou annan?  Mon ti ava kontan Minis i koz avek nou lo la.  So se sa kat pwen ki mon war konman bann defi ki mon ti a kontan Minis i, i koz ek nou lo la.

So premyerman kapasite ban antite pou aplik sa Lalwa?  Dezyenmman lefe ki pou annan lo nou ziridiksyon an aplikan sa Lalwa ozordi?  Sa kestyon 10poursan?  Apre rezis i ganny kite an konfidansyalite ouswa piblik?  Donk sa i bann pwen Mr Speaker ki mon ti anvi koz lo la e parey mon dir se ki i en Bill ki malgre nou pa ti pare pou nou aplik li ozordi me nou napa swa nou pe nou’n ganny apiye avek en miray i annan en kouto anba nou lagorz.  Mersi bokou.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Henrie.  Bon zis pou averti bann Manm ki nou’n ganny go ahead ek SBC pou nou ale ziska 12.30.

Me nou pou aret dan 12.20, 12.25 zis pou donn sa letan, pou sa change over.  Mon ava donn laparol Onorab Sebastien Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Speaker.  E bonn apre, bonn apre midi tou dimoun i zis apre midi.  Mr Speaker mon, mon krwar i enportan ki nou, nou aksepte en fe ozordi se ki nou, nou kontan pe refer lo sa sekter, sa sekter i enportan ki nou pa fer sa fot e krwar sa i aplik zis pou sekter finansyel, swa offshore i aplik annefe pou tou, tou antite.

Tou antite ki legalman anrezistre konpannyen si ou en Cabinet avoka, si ou en Real Estate Agent, si ou en Insurance Company, si ou en konpannyen lapes, si ou en konpannyen.  I aplik pou tou so i, i napa okenn lanfaz lo sey touf en sekter oubyen lot akoz annefe si i annan en sekter ki li i probableman an avans avek lezot se sekter finansyel offshore.  Akoz li son nivo compliance avek bann mekanizm ki annan i bokou pli o.

Me malgre ki li an avans avek lezot lo en lot kote par lefe ki nou annan li, nou annan li an legzistans dan nou striktir i fer ki ler nou ganny war partially compliant lo en size nou partial compliance i pa ganny war parey en lot ziridiksyon ki li ti napa sa sekter li.  I ganny war dan en fason pli, pli konpleks i ganny en lizye, en magnifying glass en pe pli, pli for.  E pou ou ilistre sa byen Mr Speaker i annan sa lorganizasyon ki nou koz lo la which is the Financial Action Task Force which is the FATF e li ki i fer i servi bann diferan assessments, different assessments Minis in koz ESAAMLG e ki nou war arive resaman la?

Nou’n war ki Maurice zis a kote nou la Maurice in al lo Grey List FATF.  E ler nou, nou ti pe konmans pe diskit AML Act ti annan en press conference fer, fer par Lopozisyon Maurice e en lenformasyon ki Onorab Georges ti share dan Bills Committee.  E zot ti pe zisteman koz lo lefe ki Maurice in al lo sa Grey List.  E enn bann rezon, enn bann rezon ki Maurice in al lo sa Grey List  in antre dan sa sityasyon se zisteman akoz i annan sa disclosure of beneficial ownership information ki dapre sa bann assessors zot santi pou ki poudir i pa alaoter.  E prezan Maurice in donn son commitment pou, pou deal ek sa.

Me i pa zis Maurice ki’n trouv li dan sa sityasyon i annan Bahamas ki’n trouv li dan sa sityasyon ki li osi ankor enn fwa, ankor enn fwa i annan menm, menm kontrent ki nou malgre li in al dan 10poursan dan deklar bann beneficial ownership.  Me lefe ki i annan en sekter finansyel offshore son partial compliance i ganny war dan en lot fason as oppose to, to en lot pei.  E se sa ki arive nou, nou i pa se sa sekter ki met nou a risk i persepsyon ki ganny kree otour sa sekter e prezan nou, nou bezwen respond accordingly.

E how do we respond, nou bezwen respond dan en fason ki nou montre poudir ok ou pe dir ek nou, nou annan sa en pe partou, partou annou amenn tou sa bann beneficial ownership anba en sel Lalwa.  Met en kad legal kler e la aprezan ou a war poudir be nou’n fer sa zefor pou nou amenn sa, sa kad legal an se ki konsern beneficial ownership.  Me prezan sa ki pli enportan following beneficial ownership se kwa ki fer ou vin en beneficial, beneficial owner?  Ki poursantaz ki fer ou vin beneficial owner?  Mon’n tann dir poudir petet nou, nou bezwen regard lo 10poursan e 25poursan.

Me annou pran, annou pran konsyans par egzanp si en dimoun i annan 10poursan dan en konpannyen atraver bann striktir ki’n ganny kree ban shell companies ki end up pe own en konpannyen ki annan ki fer leksplorasyon delwil en massive company i annan zis 10poursan ladan li.  What is that income derive from the 10percent?  Ki, ki kantite ki i pe gannyen from sa 10percent?  Ou konpran e mon krwar, e mon krwar se sa ki pe ganny mete.

Mon konnen ki bokou dimoun dan sa sekter poudir be zot, zot le fer nou vin the world police me nou napa en swa dan sa sityasyon la we don’t really have a choice.  Akoz tou dimoun pe ganny demande pou regulate lo en serten nivo ki fer ou ziridiksyon vin pli, vin pli secure e protez restriksyon kont possible attacks ki kapab gannyen par bann dimoun ki le abiz lo la.  Prezan ou a kapab dir mon poudir be akoz Langleter i met 25poursan?  Be Langleter i met 25poursan akoz li annan lezot kad legal i annan en striktir legal ki petet son kapasite i permet li pou fer lezot keksoz ki nou, nou pa kapab fer.  Lanmerik i annan, i annan IRS i annan kapasite ki permet li pou fer keksoz ki nou, nou pa kapab fer.

E se sa element of trust probableman ki lezot i annan dan sa bann lenstitisyon ki, ki lezot pou annan par egzanp pou Langleter ki zot pou napa dan pou nou ki nou pou bezwen fer serten, serten travay pou nou siport nou bann lenstitisyon avek bann kad legal ki zot bezwen.  E that’s the importance e mon, mon krwar when it comes to capacity wi nou pou bezwen beef up nou kapasite me mon krwar par egzanp ozordi FSA i annan kapasite pou fer li zot annan knowhow.

FIU i annan knowhow i annan dimoun ki, ki’n train, nou annan dimoun ki kapab ganny trained ankor.  Sa ki mon krwar nou devret fer se ki nou devret reinforce lofis Rezistrar sa i en landrwa ki nou bezwen fer en bon pe travay pou nou reinforce akoz nou bezwen don Rezistrar plis resours.  E mon konnen poudir in annan across tou Bidze sa eleman AMLCFT ki’n antre.  Kot nou’n war Gouvernman in met larzan dan tou striktir si nou rapel byen ler nou ti pe pas Bidze dan tou Seksyon ki deal avek sa size nou war lanfaz ganny mete lo la.  E se sa ki enportan nou bezwen regarde sa ki mannyer nou balans sa ki nou pe fer avek bann keksoz ki nou pe ganny demande pou fer.

I annan en lot pwen fondamantal osi ki nou bezwen apresye Sesel ti riske lo sa menm lalis ki Maurice i lo la ozordi la as we speak.  E mon krwar an tou si mon pa tronpe Mr Speaker i annan plis ki en 15enn pei lo sa lalis.  E ladan bann ki relate en pti pe avek nou, nou sityasyon Bahamas, Barbedos, Botswana, Jamaica, Maurice, Panama tousala i relate en pti pe avek nou sityasyon ki nou, nou ladan.

E rezon pou sa se akoz sa Lalwa pou ed nou avek en lot sityasyon ki vin en problenm pou nou e sa se danze ki the NPO Non-Profit Organization Sector i kapab koze. Ou konpran?  E mon konnen Onorab avan in koz lo beneficial owner dan tou sa, dan tou son, son splander.  E se sa esansyelman ki nou pe al fer.  Me nou bezwen fer sir ki sa Lalwa nou fini avek ozordi ki i ganny ratifye by lafen sa semenn, akoz sa i form par ler mon pe get zot time frame ki zot in koz lo la anba sa lot Lalwa, i form par baz negosyasyon ki zot pe al avek an relasyon avek sa ki’n pase.  E petet ti ava enportan Minis pou ou dir nou zot in Luxembourg zot in fer bann renyon avek FATF, ti ava enportan pou swa ou swa Direkter FIU pou koz en pti pe lo travay ki zot in bezwen fer zisteman pou anpese ki Sesel i al lo  sa lalis ki nou trouv nou ladan ozordi.  E ki mannyer prezan nou bezwen kontinyen fer travay ki neseser pou nou fer.  

So an konklizyon Mr Speaker travay devan nou se pou nou get sa Lalwa from a perspective ki i pa neseserman en kouto i anba nou lagorz be sa ki nou, nou bezwen fer pou protez nou ziridiksyon.  Pou protez nou sekter offshore pou protez nou sekter konpannyen domestik lokal.

Akoz at the end of the day nou bezwen aksepte poudir si nou annan 100,000mil, 120,000mil konpannyen anrezistre dan nou sekter offshore nou pou perdi en pe.  I annan  ki pou ale ki pou santi ki zot bezwen ale akoz legzizans petet pou pli o lo zot akoz i ankor annan keksoz ki pou vini.  I pou annan lamannman dan pou zot provide zot bann accounting information isi ki en eleman ki, ki’n anmenn nou sanksyon kont France.  ou konpran.  So pou annan bann lezot keksoz ki bezwen ganny fer.

So mon krwar nou sa ki nou devret fer Lasanble se annou kontinyen met lanfaz lo asire ki i annan resours adekwa ki ganny mete me osi annou prepare pou nou demann kestyon sa bann Lotorite ler sa bann size i leve e si nou donn zot resours akoz sa bann sityasyon i kontinyen releve e sa i enportan pou nou konpran Mr speaker.  Mersi bokou.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Pillay.  Mon ava donn laparol Onorab Ahmed Afif.

 

HON AHMED AFIF

Mersi bokou Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker zis de pti pwen byen vit zis pou eksplik en pti pe piblik ki rezon sa bann dimoun ki Onorab Henrie par egzanp pe dir pe met en kouto anba likou.

Oubyen ki rezon bann regilater enternasyonal ki mon krwar i vreman par deryer sa Lezislasyon ki zot pe demande ki nou annan en rezis ki apel beneficial ownership.  E akoz sa rezis bezwen ganny garde par FIU?  Ozordi dan Sesel nou annan plizyer lakonpannyen ki ganny formen  e ler en lakonpannyen i ganny formen i ganny li en parey en birth certificate i apel certificate of incorporation e i donn detrwa dokiman ki son memorandum apre i dir lekel son Direkter apre i dir lekel son propriyeter.

Me le fer zot pe donn sa bann lenformasyon i annan diferan landrwa ki zot ale par egzanp si en lakonpannyen lokal i al kot Rezistrar ki Independence House i donn sa bann lenformasyon i dir lekel son propriyeter si en lakonpannyen ki nou, nou konn li konman offshore international business company li al Bois De Rose e i met son lenformasyon laba i dir lekel son Direkter e lekel son propriyeter.  Si pe form en Trust i al Bois De Rose kot FSA i donn son bann lenformasyon si i pe fer partnership si i pe fer en Lasosyasyon i al kot Rezistrar Independence House.

Alors lenformasyon lo sa bann dimoun ki pa pe tranzakte swa isi swa deor, souvandfwa lenformasyon i eparpiye en pe partou.  E sa morso Lalwa pe dir be ler bann regilater enternasyonal i kler sa tors lo Sesel, i dir mon pe rod lenformasyon lo tel dimoun i pa anvi al Independence House, i pa anvi al Bois De Rose i anvi al en sel landrwa ki la ozordi mon krwar i pou Perseverans.  E i ganny tou sa lenformasyon.  Me selman ou ek mon ki nou, nou pa Lapolis nou pa regilater nou, nou pou napa akse ek sa lenformasyon.  Lakour pou annan, Lapolis pou annan, FSA pou annan, SRC pou annan.

Zot, zot pou annan akoz zot bann Lotorite zot, si taks deor i demann taks isi mon pe rod lenformasyon lo sa kapab gannyen parske tasks osi i kapab al kot FIU pou rod sa lenformasyon.  Alors se en pti pe sa lide par deryer sa.   Mwan  mon pwen se mon konpran akoz zot pe fer li koumsa, me selman sa Lalwa i pe osi met en lour dan en serten fason lo sa bann reporting entities dan le sans ozordi si ou en CSP, ou en avoka ki ou annan en license CSP ou anrezistre lakonpannyen.

Ozordi ler ou fer li ou pran tou sa bann lenformasyon son Direkter, son propriyeter ou donn avek sa Rezistrar ki dizon i dan ka offshore i al kot Bois De Rose.  Be la prezan i pou bezwen osi pran menm lenformasyon donn avek FIU i pou oblize fer li la anba sa Lalwa.  Alor i vin de louvraz en pe louvraz an plis.  Me mwan  mon’n koz en pti pe avek bann regilater bann ki pou enplimant sa Lalwa.  E sa ki mon konpran se ki zot pou fer li fasil pou zot akoz zot pou annan en, en lankadreman IT lo lakel tou sa lenformasyon i kapab ganny mete dan en fason senp online ki pou fer zot louvraz minim.

Si sa i leka mon swete i leka mwan, mon krwar poudir i en keksoz ki i fezab i kapab ganny fer an menm tan nou pa met sa lour  lo sekter.  An menm tan bann regilater enternasyonal i ganny lenformasyon ki zot pe rode.  E koumsa nou vin sa ki nou apel compliant.  So mon swe Minis se ki dan lenplimantasyon sa Lalwa nou fer li dan en fason ki, ki lo en nivo enternasyonal byensir me an menm tan nou fer li dan en fason ki efikas pa kree plis papye, pa kree plis birokrasi e pa kree plis depans e lour lo sa bann lakonpannyen ki fer zot ki met en kestyon lo zot lefikasite e lo zot profitabilite finalman.

Alor mwan, mon krwar nou devret regard li koumsa mon espere ki nou kapab fer li dan en fason ki i pa met en lour e an menm tan i pa pou fer nou perdi biznes dan lemonn.  So avek sa mon krwar i en keksoz ki nou devret regarde e regard li dan fason pozitiv pou Sesel.  Mersi Mr Speaker.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Afif.  Minister ou annan ou en short letan pou ou Right of Reply.  Eski ou pou kapab fer li la dan sa kourt leta oubyen nou a fer li ler nou antre 2er?  Minister.

 

MINISTER MAURICE LOUSTAU-LALANNE

Mr Speaker nou annan konbyen 8 minit?

 

MR SPEAKER

Wi apepre.

 

MINISTER MAURICE LOUSTAU-LALANNE

Wi nou kapab ale.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ou kapab.  Go ahead Minister, your Right of Reply.

 

MINISTER MAURICE LOUSTAU-LALANNE

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker pou reponn sa ki Onorab Hoareau i mansyonnen mon ti a kontan konfirmen ki bann norm ki nou pe servi dan sa Lalwa se norm OECD alor i bann norm ki nou klasifye konman bann norm enternasyonal.

Letan en CSP i fermen parey ozordi pe arive i bezwen donn sa lenformasyon ki annan avek FSA.  E sa i reste parey e li FSA i pou gard sa pou en peryod 7an.  Sistenm FSA letan i annan en lenfraksyon kelkonk FSA i pran aksyon sanksyon si i pa dakor i annan en dele letan pou li fer en appeal.  E Lalwa i kler lo bann dimoun ki lo sa Appeals Board e li i ekout sa appeal.

E aprezan si i pa satisfe avek sa appeal i al Ankour e sanmenm sa sistenm ki nou pe garde.  Alor plizyer entervenan bann Onorab in koz lo sa threshold 10poursan so mon a donn mon larepons la pou kouver diferan entervenan la lo sa menm size.  Nou, nou santi ki ziska tan ki nou’n fer sa national risk assessment akoz nou’n dir nou pou fer sa akoz BO i en high risk nou prefere met li 10poursan.  E apre ki national risk assessment in ganny fer si i demontre ki i merit 13poursan, 15poursan, 25poursan nou ava amande.

So la, la kot sa 10poursan i antre. Nou santi ki pou le moman i enportan ki nou met li at 10percentNow controlling interest li i pou ganny defini letan nou pou fer Regilasyon ok, so sa travay pou ganny fer dan Regilasyon plitar.  An sa ki konsern kapasite finansyel, kapasite formasyon, kapasite bann, bann Lotorite, bann lenstans, ki plizyer entervenan in koz lo la wi e mon kontan ki Onorab Pillay in mansyonnen ki dan Bidze ki zot menm zot ti’n aprouve zot in remarke e in ganny konfirmen dir ki nou ti donn plizyer milyon Roupi pou diferan Lazans pou attend meeting, pou fer training an a mon sa.

E Gouvernman i committed pou fer sir ki nou siport sa bann Lazans akoz i tre enportan dan son lenplimantasyon me i annan enn ki mon pou mansyonnen akoz nou santi mwan, mon santi ki i bezwen sipor pli irzan e sa se SRC.  Mon krwar i neseser ki SRC i kree li en, en unit ki pou deal avek sa bann, sa bann lenformasyon lesanz bann lenformasyon ki fodre donnen eksetera.  Akoz nou menm nou’n konstate ki’n annan serten, serten challenge so si mon’n mansyonn li se pa mon mansyonn li akoz i pa pe fer son travay mon mansyonn li akoz i annan sa kontrent.

Now kestyon in poze lo latransparans, si nou tou nou fer nou louvraz byen tou keksoz i byen me si ariv en defayans mannyer nou met nou’n Lalwa i pou finalman ariv Ankour.  E se laba kot ou pou ganny latransparans, akoz se laba ki bann lenformasyon pou sorti piblikman.  So nou, nou sapit transparans dan sa i Lakour evantyelman e se la ki nou pou konnen bann lenformasyon ki pou sorti piblikman dan en ka ki al Ankour.

Onorab Pillay in mansyonnen ki efektivman i pa tous Mr Onorab Henrie i pa tous zis bann konpannyen offshore e tou sa ki’n dir mon dakor avek li.  Offshore annefe i annan en lavans e bokou nou bann konpannyen lokal pou ganny touse par sa, sa Lalwa.  E wi mon dakor avek ou e mon’n deza fer sa komanter letan mon ti pe koz lo AML mwan osi mon santi ki to ou tar letan pou arive kot pa zis met kouto anba lagorz ki pou arive i pou arive li i pou vini li e mon’n eksplike akoz.  So nou pou bezwen pran nou letan aranz nou sityasyon pou nou kontinyen ganny benefis ek sa sekter ziska tan nou santi ki i pa pou dan nou lentere akoz nou pou parey tou keksoz.

Les mon a donn ou en legzanp zot osi in koz lo sa, sa rezis piblik pou le moman.  Rezis piblik i pa lo standar, i annan enn de pei ki’n entrodwi i pa lo standar ankor.  Me le moman ki nou par egzanp nou met nou rezis piblik nou a en dezavantaz akoz ozordi serten konpannyen pou kontinyen vini akoz nou annan en safeguard nou dir nou pou annan en database kot FIU ki zis bann ki konsernen ki pou kapab lesanz lenformasyon e zot pou lesanz lenformasyon akoz, akoz i kapab annan en defayans alor pe tyek lenformasyon.

Se pa toulezour ki zot pou tyeke FIU osi i ava annan sa database pou permet li regarde kwa ki pe pase, me le moman nou pou met sa rezis piblik nou pou perdi en lavantaz.  Be i pou arive pa demen pa apredmen e mon, mon travay se fer sir i ariv le plitar posib.  Me selman we are at the mercy avek sa bann dimoun ki zot osi zot fer meeting kot zot sanz bann standar, fodre nou gard sa dan nou lespri sa toultan.  Malerezman ou konman en Zournalis ou pou napa akse avek sa database pou le moman.  Kan i ava vin piblik wi me pou le moman ou pa pou ganny akse.  Bon

Onorab Pillay mon toutafe dakor avek sa tou sa ki ou’n dir annefe mon pa pou repet lo kapasite mon’n koz lo SRC, ou’n lev pwen Bidze wi mon krwar sa i tre enportan e larzan ki zot in vote in ganny depanse byen akoz e la, la ranfor.  Letan nou konmans sa meeting mon tande ki nou annan bann bon profesyonnel dan sa, dan sa domenn e sa ki zot in vote in servi pou sa.  E donk finalman avek Onorab Afif sa database ki Perseverans la li kot FIU li i egzakteman parey ou’n eksplike e nou, nou le fer li operasyonnel an Zanvye 2021.

E donk kanmenm sa Lalwa i pase la Prezidan i assent annou dir eksetera, nou pa pou demande pou fer en travay prealab setadir tou sa ki nou annan la lo papye anvoy laba ganny met dan en sistenm apre remet dan en lot sistenm nou pa le fer sa duplication.  Nou pou postpone nou pou espere ziska tan sa platform in pare apre nou a fer en sel transferSo mon donn ou sa garanti ki nou pa pe kree travay for the sake of kree travay ki initil pou konmanse.  So sa database pou fully operational an Zanvye 2021 e nou pou fer en sel transfer in one go.

Mersi Mr Speaker.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Minister.  Bon nou a fini de pti formalite ki ler nou ava antre nou a kapab al dan Staz Komite.  Nou pou pran en vot lo merit e prensip zeneral Bill ki’n ganny prezante devan nou savedir Beneficial Ownership Bill, 2020. 

Mon ava demann tou Manm ki an faver?  Okenn Manm ki kont?  Madanm Deputy Clerk.

 

MADAM CLERK

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Tou Manm tou le 22 Manm prezan in vot an faver.  E personn kont.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Madam Deputy Clerk.  Eski nou kapab ganny en Formal Second Reading.

 

MADAM CLERK

Mersi Mr Speaker.  ‘A Bill of an Act to provide for the identification and verification of beneficial ownership of legal persons and legal arrangements; to establish and maintain up to date register of beneficial owners, a centralised database and for matters connected therewith or incidental thereto’.  Mersi Mr Speaker

 

MR SPEAKER

Bon mersi Madanm Deputy Clerk.  Bon nou ava aret la e nou ava repran nou travay 2er e ler nou ava antre nou ava constitute into Committee e pou nou kapab regard bann lamannman.

Nou ava break e nou, mon remersi tou dimoun an menm tan mon remersi SBC, nou repran nou travay 2er apre midi.

 

 

(BREAK)

 

 

MR SPEAKER

Bonn apre midi tou Manm Onorab.  E bonn apre midi Minis avek ou delegasyon.  Bonn apre midi tou dimoun ki a lekout e pe swiv travay Lasanble Nasyonal.

Bon nou ti’n fini pran en vot lo Second Reading, mon ava demann Sarge pou move Mace pou nou al dan Staz Komite.  Eski Onorab Pillay pou lead nou ankor oubyen?  Yes Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair Onorab Georges will be in any minute now so nou kapab konmanse e Onorab Deputy Speaker i ava scroll down lo Lalwa for the benefit of the House and then Onorab Georges i ava take over.

 

MR SPEAKER

Dakor.  Ok Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Ok mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair, notwithstanding ki pou annan serten sanzman regarding formilasyon serten Clauses. So nou pou konmans avek the title of the Bill itself kot in annan serten konsern ki mon krwar i bann konsern ki fonde e ki i devret ganny eksplike vizavi the title of the Bill itself.

An konparezon avek lezot stati ki egziste dan lezot ziridiksyon.  The Bill itself dan nou konteks i apel The Beneficial Ownership Bill.  E beneficial ownership i ganny define as ‘a natural person or persons who ultimately owns or controls a customer’ savedir dan sa ka sa customer nou pe koz, nou pe koz an relasyon avek sa keksoz ki sa dimoun i annan the beneficial ownership of. 

However SIFSA the Trade in annan en konsern ki mon krwar i ti ava neseser pou bann pou panel eksplike.  Zot konsern i se ki the purpose of the BO register e mon pe lir word for word la Mr Speaker, ‘is to establish person who has control, it does not aim to record property rights which are recorded in respective registers, land register, company register, asset register and so on’.  Nou konnen poudir Registrar i annan Registrar General i annan en Land Register i annan en Companies Register anba Companies Act.

Now zot in donn nou en legzanp kot si en dimoun par egzanp i own 10percent share in SACOS e i receive dividends i pa vedir ki sa dimoun in annan control of the company.  Neither does it make him a decision maker of the entity.  E zot in sit de legzanp;- Hong Kong avek United Kingdom kot zot dir i annan en Lalwa, Lalwa i titled dan en fason pou donn serten spesifisite.  So in UK zot dir sa i apel The Persons with Significant Control Act e Hong Kong i apel sa The Controlling Persons Act.

E zot in met en not.  The same principle was adopted by OECD in common reporting standards CRS where it requires every financial institution to identify the controlling person, the CRS provides for clear definition of controlling person.  Mon krwar zot konsern i se ki nou definisyon of beneficial owner in enkorpor si oule to controlling person.  So sa ki petet panel ti ava kapab, ti ava byen pou zot eklersi pou nou se eski zot santi poudir sa definisyon vizavi travay ki bann regilater, supervisors e bann lezot administrater i bezwen fer i pou ase pou zot fer sa travay ki zot pe fer?

E i pou kominik avek trade that the meaning of beneficial owner is clear and that’s what they mean by beneficial owner.  Mersi Mr Chairman.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Pillay.  Panel, yes Dr Fanny.

 

CEO FSA  DR STEVE FANNY

Good afternoon Mr Speaker.  Good afternoon bann Onorab.  Good afternoon everybody listening.  Baze lo sa ki SIFSA pe dir in terms of the beneficial owner ler nou pe regard nou bann assessment avek bann nou bann regilater enternasyonal;- Beneficial owner  i kler li i en dimoun ki pe derive en benefis.   Ou kapab, kapab napa kontrol lo lorganizasyon ou oubyen lo en striktir.  I par egzanp fer konmsi mon donn zot en senp legzanp fer konmsi mon annan en Foundation.  Mon annan mwan en Foundation aprezan mon met Mr X mon met li konman en beneficiary anba the Foundation.  I kapab pe run sa Foundation i kapab napa okenn operational control anything about this me selman lefe ki li ki pe resevwar sa larzan, li ki pou ganny sa benefis, se sa ki sa Lotorite enternasyonal i anvi konnen lekel sa dimoun ki pe ganny sa benefis.

Akoz i anvi konnen lekel ki pe ganny sa benefis? Akoz sa i al plitar avek tax matters.   Fodre nou get li dan son globalite, akoz si mwan ki pe resevwar sa benefis, plitar sa Lotorite enternasyonal oubyen sa ziridiksyon i kapab dir Steve ou ki ti resevwar en benefis anba en Trust, alors ou liable pou tax.  I pa pe gete whether si mwan, mon annan mon kontrol over an organization, ou konpran mwan?

So therefore this is why mon’n lir sa pti legzanp ki zot mete la about somebody holding 10percent shares for example i dan SACOS company, aprezan i napa  en interest  – i pa relevan  pou BO Act.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Dr Fanny.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair.  Me selman i annan en keksoz ki Dr Fanny in dir, ki then raises a point of concern ki donn  serten kredi ki largiman ki SIFSA pe vin avek.  Ou’n mansyonn sa mo benefis but if you look at the definition of beneficial owner, mon pa war where that word ‘benefit’ comes in. 

Perhaps to be abundantly clear parey Onorab Hoareau i kontan dir in the abundance of caution, ti ava bon ou enkli benefis somewhere there is somebody deriving a benefit.  Or am I wrong because you are the regulators.  Ou’n mention poudir it’s clear internationally from bann assessors, but I don’t see the word ‘benefit’ coming in here.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  E bonn apre midi tou Manm.  Zis pou provide en pe plis klarite lo sa size, sa definisyon ki nou’n servi pou beneficial owner i the standard definition ki ganny rekonnet by FATF e osi tou it has been extended to by OECD ki zot pe adopte menm definisyon.

Prezan ki enportan sa i, i zis son overall definisyon lesansyalite i pou kapab endike ki, ki dimoun ki ou pe rode ki dimoun ki ganny konsidere konman en beneficial owner.  Par rapor to lenterpretasyon beneficial owner ki how you get to sa beneficial owner,  i annan trwa, trwa level i annan dimoun ki annan lentere dan lakonpannyen parey Mr Fanny pe dir e i annan dimoun osi tou ki annan kontrol atraver bann other interest in the company.  E prezan ultimately osi tou sa i bann step zis pou fer kler, sa i bann step mannyer pou ou kapab idantifye sa personnalite ki deryer sa lakonpannyen.  E trwazyenmman si petet ou pa pe kapab war sa enn premye ou pa pe kapab war sa enn dezyenm, then prezan i antre internal dan sa lakonpannyen kot en dimoun ki annan management is a management of the company. 

So lo sa laspe i kouver petet sa kestyon ki Onorab pe demande in terms of si ou bezwen ekri sa bout lentere.  Lentansyon pou nou annan en overall lenterpretasyon of beneficial owner e dan Regulation nou pou detail out in terms of like mannyer ou pou idantifye bann endividi ki sipoze ganny rekonnet konman beneficial owner par rapor to en legzanp.

Let’s say lakonpannyen petet si nou dir Foundation i en lot konteks for Foundation sa ki i ganny ekspekte e osi petet bann lezot laranzman ki annan.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Onorab Ferrari.

 

HON JEAN-FRANCOIS FERRARI

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker mwan, mon annan en, en difikilte ler mon pe sey link sa ki’n ganny dekrir konman beneficial owner avek sa threshold ki zot pe mete isi konman 25poursan.  Akoz mon annan en problenm, akoz i annan serten pei ki pli ba;- i annan serten pei parey Maurice aparaman there’s no threshold it’s back to 20percent now?  Ok.

I annan diferan threshold.  Now mwan, mon kestyon se ki beneficial owner i normalman anybody who derives any benefit.  Why you need a threshold then? Because even the person ki own 5poursan oubyen 2poursan dan en konpannyen major company enternasyonal;- 2poursan dan Google i mon krwar i ase sibstansyel.  So eksplik nou, akoz nou bezwen sa threshold e, e akoz mon en pe per ki bann ki par anba sa threshold zot pa pou bezwen fer okenn deklarasyon.

So do you want to know all the beneficial owners not whether or not there’s a threshold, whether or not the threshold is, is 25 or 20 or 10?

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Dr Fanny.

 

CEO FSA  DR STEVE FANNY

Mr Chair.  In terms of the threshold akoz nou servi li nou pe koz lo rezon par egzanp mon pou al lo en CSP lapratikalite fer konmsi nou ti annan en threshold ki dir ou koumsa any shares parey mon kapab annan 0.5 or 1percent shares, 2percent shares dan en konpannyen aprezan mon bezwen rod sa beneficial owner louvraz par-ler becomes very tedious.

Konmsi aprezan ou annan ou en konpannyen ki pe al, ki pe issue en kantite shares aprezan ou annan sa pti git amount of shares ki i bezwen rikorde.  E menm i annan bann pei parey Lerop parey nou’n war parey i annan zot, zot in met sa bann threshold en pti pe pli o.  Akoz zot pa pe tro mazinen zot pe dir be up to sa level it is not that important for me.  Prezan la mon konnen ou kapab follow- up avek en kestyon, mon krwar mon a reponn zot kestyon akoz toultan zot demann mwan akoz nou pe dir 10poursan?  Akoz this is the argument ki i industry in anmennen.  I en largiman ki valab selman akoz 10poursan?

Ler ou pe regarde bann pei ki’n fer zot bann assessment recently nou pe koz Bahamas nou pe koz Barbados, sa bann pei zot threshold in desann at 10percent.  E la aprezan la i annan en tendency pou kot sa bann zafer pe desann lo 10percent.  Nou Sesel  nou pa anvi fer nou, we have to be proactive en kou la nou pa kapab kontinyen zis reakte.

Akoz tanzantan nou pe reakte, akoz nou pou bezwen or, or ou pou war mon la ankor en kou lannen prosenn oubyen en pe lannen apre mon pou bezwen vin dir ou by the way bannla in bouz goalpost la akoz zot pe bouze sa goalpost.  Aprezan la mon pou tir 25 nou pou met 10.  Be plito nou met sa 10 la konman nou pe deal avek sa Lalwa ki fer bokou plis sans.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Dr Fanny.   Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Si zis pou mon ranforsi en pti git azout a sa ki Mr Fanny pe dir.  In terms of like mannyer ou, ou pitch ki, ki poursantaz ou idantifye tousala i come back lo risk ki sa lanvironnman ki nou pe operate ladan right.

Premye keksoz nenport ki even dan, dan parey dan AML Act as well, bann diferan mezir ki ou pran dan ou pei i depandan lo risk ki’n ganny idantifye right.  Petet si mon a donn ou en lot legzanp avan i annan sa konsep of simplify due diligence avan en pei i kapab zis senpleman vini dir ki ok mon pou allow en serten sekter pou exercise simplify due diligence ou pou’n bezwen undertake serten risk assessment ki pou donn ou sa konfor ki petet sa sekter i domestik.

Posibilite ki i pou ganny servi pou, pou launder Fund in the process of sa aktivite i minimal.  E as such nou poudir be ki ou, ou kapab exercise a, simplify due diligence approach.  Similarly pou bann lezot konsep and in this case for BO ou pou bezwen idantifye li par rapor to, to risk.  Ler nou pou get nou konteks nou annan nou, annou pa zanmen oubliye nou annan nou domestic context e osi nou annan the offshore as well.  En keksoz ki enportan pou fer resorti i ki i annan bokou persepsyon lo, lo offshore sekter to be high risk i senpleman first of all ki ganny rekonnet i par rapor i bann nonface to face transaction ki deroule.

E non-face to face transaction i pli i, i ganny perceive to be of higher risk akoz as oppose to annan en kliyan isi Sesel ou kapab war tou son bann aktivite ki pe deroule.  Ou pou i pou kapab annan son kont banker isi Sesel e tou lenformasyon i pli accessible i donn Lotorite i donn sa bann reporting entities plis konfor ki bann lenformasyon is on the groundSo prezan i de la ki ou swazir in terms of like petet ki poursantaz ou pou anvi anploye, employ here in Seychelles ler ou pe idantifye BO. 

Which is why nou’n dir based on nou bann mutual evaluation report ki nou’n resevwar, espesyalman last week osi tou nou’n, nou ti pe engage avek OECD.  E nou’n kapab war ki bann defayans ki annan in terms of latransparans isi Sesel.  E beneficial ownership i en area kot nou santi Sesel nou’n fer bokou me selman i still annan mankman.  E alor se pou sa rezon sa poursantaz 25 i pa apropriye a se moman nou kapab lower it pou nou kapab i pa, i pa selman osi tou zis pou exchange of information right.  I enportan ki nou bezwen realize i annan cases ki arive pou money laundering kot cases i be passed on to the Police kot i passed on to Anti-Koripsyon osi tou.

E nou, nou annan lentere pou nou konn sa bann lenformasyon e pou nou get hold of sa bann lenformasyon.  So i, i pou se pou sa rezon ki nou, nou’n santi sa 10poursan a sa pwen la i apropriye pou nou, pou nou adopte.  E zis pou note osi tou lo konmansman diskisyon nou ti konmans nou ti annan en menm persep en menm pozisyon parey ou akoz i pa zero me ler nou’n get li an konteks e an pratik osi tou i fer sans pou nou pa kit li zero.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Bon mon ti a kontan rekonnet prezans Attorney General lo panel.  Attorney General good afternoon e welcome dan Lasanble Nasyonal.  Yes Onorab Ferrari.

 

HON JEAN-FRANCOIS FERRARI

Wi Mr Speaker.  Mon’n byen ekout Minis bomaten e, e mon, mon dakor avek li ki i pe pran en, en lapros ase realistik lo fitir sa lendistri.  E ki nou bezwen survive osi lontan ki nou kapab e get the most out of it.

Me mon kestyon i en kestyon senp eski nou pa pe al en pe tro vit dan bann dan in conceding dan sans ki from 25poursan nou ti kapab fer parey Maurice ki nou immediate competitor  si oule.  E ki  si Maurice i reste  lo 20poursan e nou, nou al direkteman lo 10 e mon konpran mon toutafe konpran pozisyon Mr Fanny eski nou pa pe al en pe tro vit dan sa demars pou nou sov Lendistri  e antretan nou perdi konpetitivite?

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Dr Fanny.

 

CEO FSA  DR STEVE FANNY

Mr Speaker, mwan menm mwan mon travay dan lendistri nou ti ava kontan i ti ava 25poursan.  Mwan laverite mon ti a kontan i ti ava 25poursan.  Me selman mon bezwen get en kou larealite underground ozordi.

Bann parmi parey mon’n dir bann pei ki’n fini ganny assess, ou annan Bahamas, ou annan ou Barbados e ou annan Sesel ki la ozordi zour nou pe ale nou pe al demann en re-assessment e ou war ki tendency i kler.  Ou war?  Tendency pe move towards en lower threshold.  Nou, nou dir plito nou met nou lo  en lower threshold.

Ou pa anvi apre ler ou pe, pe ganny assess lo ou Lalwa, prezan en boug i dir ek ou be ou konnen what, threshold la in being 10poursan la oubyen 15poursan, selman ou, ou ankor 25poursan, alor baze lo la prezan mon krwar ou annan ou en non-compliant.  Be en boug i rod tou pti keksoz pou li vin -.  Mon pa krwar ki – sa i pa significantly detrimental pou sa lendistri.  Akoz parey ou’n dir largiman menm lendistri in deza dir mon sa se ki nou napa problenm.

En kantite dimoun napa problenm pou identify lekel tou bann BO parmi en IBC napa problenm pou identify sa bann BO actually sa, sa 10poursan i, i en keksoz ki ed zot ou konpran mwan?  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Dr Fanny.  Onorab Clifford Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair mon konsern i vin letan nou pe get sa definisyon i koz nou of a natural person or persons.  Me selman konteks pou definisyon natural person pa egziste dan sa Lalwa.  So mon krwar enn ki nou bezwen gete.

Dezyenmman letan nou dir en legal entity mon a donn en legzanp dezyenm 2 (1) Roman (ii) i dir ou annan ‘Association registered under Registration anba Legislation Act’.  Be en groupman ki zot pratik se zot, zot lafwa i osi ganny anrezistre anba la.  Prezan e letan nou’n dir sa dimoun i annan kontrol e nou’n dir Schedule 2 ki 10percent.  Dizon dan sa groupman napa personn ki annan 10poursan ki mannyer sa pou ganny kategorize?

E dezyenmman letan i mean trwazyenmman plito letan mon pe gete dan seksyon 3 i dir li ‘a transaction’ si nou al lo line the beneficial ownership i dir ‘it means a natural person or persons who’s ultimately, ultimately owns or control a customer or the natural person on whose behalf a transaction’.

Savedir nou pe dir ki sak tranzaksyon dizon en groupman relizye pe fer kat tranzaksyon par semenn e sak sa tranzaksyon pou bezwen ganny rikorde who is the beneficial ownership in terms of that. 

        So konmsi en leksplikasyon akoz nou’n met ‘a transaction’?  Ok so mon krwar sa i kree en, en pti pe dout lo ki mannyer nou pou marse.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel, Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Zis pou tous lo sa bout kot ou pe refer lo Lasosyasyon;- 10percent parey mon ti pe eksplike oparavan definisyon beneficial owner sa i en eleman of idantifye beneficial owner.  Me par egzanp dan sa konteks si ou pe dir en, en groupman relizye i pou annan en dimoun ki pou annan kontrol lo sa aktivite lo kontrol lo tranzaksyon ki pe deroule.

E dan sa ka sa dimoun ki pou ganny idantifye konman son beneficial owner parey ou’n war pou idantifye beneficial owner zis mon ava repran li ankor i annan trwa fason ki nou pou preskrir dan Regilasyon mannyer pou idantifye en beneficial owner.

I pou annan sa enn premye kot si ou annan lentere direk or endirek dan sa lakonpannyen, si ou annan kontrol atraver bann other mediums e trwazyenm si ou annan management.  So sa i sa bann steps ki ou pou bezwen pran pou ou kapab idantifye lekel ki beneficial owner.  So sa konponan poursantaz parey ou pe dir i zis en eleman.

E dezyenmman par rapor to tranzaksyon sa responsabilite pou idantifye beneficial owner i par rapor to sa legal person alright, or legal arrangement.  E dan sa konteks koumsa i pe dir ou ki si ou annan kontrol si ou annan, ou annan lentere, me i dir ou par rapor to sa to tranzaksyon.  So tranzaksyon i sa trigger ki eksplik ou in terms of like ou bezwen rekonnet sa dimoun konman the beneficial owner.  I pa vedir ki sak tranzaksyon ki ou pe fer ou pou bezwen en idantifye beneficial owner.

Akoz sa i pou en lot keksoz akoz si ou pe koz tranzaksyon outward i pa about tranzaksyon outward i about sa Antite li menm li i pe conduct en, en tranzaksyon prezan lekel ki annan sa kontrol ki manage or ki pran desizyon on behalf of sa Antite pou fer sa tranzaksyon ale.  I plis dan sa konteks koumsa.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Wi, la en leksplikasyon in ganny donnen, be eski i pa enportan pou nou enkli sa dan definisyon, koumsa sa tranzaksyon i pa pran en lenterpretasyon ouver kot sakenn pe met lenterpretasyon?

Demen ler sityasyon i arive i al Ankour we know what a transaction in that context as define by law i sipoze A, B, C e i pa pou al an deor sa konteks.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Se pou sa rezon ki nou’n dir sa definisyon pou idantifye i pou dan Regilasyon e sa ki la nou santi i anmenn plis fleksibilite pou the trade.

Akoz si i mon kapab share ek zot semenn pase mon ti pe attend meeting FATF Paris, e ki now zot in ouver ankor diskisyon lo beneficial ownership pou zot reviz pou zot fer en letid lo Seksyon lo rekomandasyon 24 ki annan lenpak lo, lo rekomandasyon 25 e osi 1 ek 10.  Ki beneficial ownership pe vin en subject matter based on lo, lo lenplimantasyon ki dan bann, bann pei e kontrent ki zot pe resevwar.

E alor dan Regilasyon si i annan any future sanzman ki pe arive, i pou pli fasil pou nou kapab adapte avek direksyon ki lemonn pe ale.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mersi Mr Chair.   Mr Chair mon konpran ki, ki Mr Rampal pe dir.  Me letan mon pe get 17 ki koz lo Regilasyon e li i koz lo spesifikman pou enforcement of this Act. 

So ki mwan, mon pe sey dir akoz nou pe mete ladan ‘as prescribed’ ok kot i a fer ki i kler ki letan sa Regilasyon i sorti ladan in fer referans ki i pou al dan Regilasyon.  So ki nou konman bann, bann legal person nou get li prezan nou a konnen poudir there’s the prescription ki’n that sa ki’n ganny prescribe so nou ale nou al get sa, sa soz.  So mon pe zis dir pou fer li pli kler ki, ki nou ava ganny sa dan konteks.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  SS Payet.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mersi Mr Chair.  Bonn apre midi tou bann Onorab.  Mr Chair zis kekfwa mon konnen ti annan konsern enn de opozisyon bann lamannman ki nou ti’n resevwar apre osi enn de bann komanter ki SIFSA in fer on the Bill itself.

Ki nou ti pe propoze se i annan enn de bann lezot lamannman ki nou pou propoze par egzanp sa konponan lo partnership ki nou pou fer li al kot legal person.  Parey dan propozisyon e akoz the minimum threshold ki nou ti pe propoze i 10poursan e i ti pou aplikab 0poursan i ti pou aplikab pou bann Partnership, Trust avek Fondasyon.

Propozisyon se retir sa, sa Second Schedule me selman anba seksyon part 2 seksyon 5 entrodwi en lot eleman part 8 ki nou dir ‘The minimum threshold for identification of the beneficial owners of legal person and legal arrangement shall be such as may be prescribed by Regulations’.  So nou ti pou met sa Regilasyon en propozisyon ki nou pou mete on the floor.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi SS.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Wi mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair mon krwar mwan, mon pou sizere ki nou fer Onorab i hold sa thought pou ler nou ariv to the respective amendments. 

So that nou proceed through the Bill nou pran each item one by one, akoz otherwise nou pou antanm bann diskisyon en pti pe dan bann out of sync e nou pa pou kapab sort of annan menm metodolozi travay ki nou’n pran pou lot Lalwa.  E nou riske pa fini ozordi si nou al dan sa laliny.  So petet si mon ti kapab demann Onorab Georges to scroll down pou nou kapab ganny bann lezot Seksyon Lalwa.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok nou pou, nou pou proceed parey nou’n fer avek AML nou pou pran sak part e apre sak part nou ava pran en vot lo la.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Prezan akoz sa ki zot in dir ou zot pou al enkli sa dan at the end so then you, you keep that, prezan ou ava bring that up ler nou ava ariv kot sa seksyon ki nou’n sa.

Akoz pour le moman konsern in ganny raise regarding the definition of beneficial ownership sa in kler, the next thing prezan ki’n vini se sa se pou annan en definisyon of transaction to make it clearer.  Mr Rampal in eksplike poudir sa i bezwen vin dan Regilasyon.

Kestyon ki nou’n ganny demande ki pe ganny demande prezan se ki whether or not sa pa devret vin en part of the, of the definition section, poudir transaction shall have the meaning as implied by prescription of the Regulation.  Si whether or not sa i ki zot pe konsidere.  Sa nou kapab move an sync, akoz baze lo diskisyon ki nou’n fer Mr Chair nou’n fini kouver trwa premye pwen ki ti annan regarding sa Lalwa.  Me nou ava bouz lo lot pwen.

Nou’n kouver sa bout ki konsern beneficial owner, mon krwar zot annan en kopi sa, sa dokiman.  Zot a enteronp mwan si i annan okenn keksoz ki zot santi nou pa ankor kouver.

Nou’n kouver sa threshold ki Onorab Ferrari in ganny sa lesplikasyon atraver FSA.  Section 3 dan interpretation nou’n kouver sa size transaction shall come up, Mr Chair, Onorab Andre i annan en –

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair anvi ki nou pe dir ki nou pou pran keksoz enn par enn e pou nou pran en vot lo sa, mwan, mon konsern i avan sa lo seksyon 2 sub-section 3 i dir ‘The Minister may by notice in the official Gazette apply or vary the provisions of this Act to legal persons and legal arrangements other than those specified in paragraph (a) and (b) of sub-section 1 from time to time’.  Mon oule sey konpran kwa vreman ki Minis pou preskri par pou donnen par notis?  Akoz in dir ki i pa an referans avek (a) avek (1) sorry avek (a) ek (b) of sub-section 1.

So eski sa pe donn Minis pouvwar pou li enkli lezot entity oubyen lezot groupman san pas kot Lasanble e pou mwan sa i pa korek.

Akoz si nou’n donn sa lalis anba Lalwa as (a) and (b) of sub-section 1 of section 2 prezan nou dir ki Minis i kapab from time to time dan notis dan official Gazette met en lot me selman pa konsernan sa, pou mwan i en pti pe pe drol e koriz mwan si mon mal.  I en Lalwa ki mwan, mon pa mazinen ki mon’n deza war enn koumsa.  So eksplik mwan akoz sa metod la pe ganny fer an referans avek sa.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  Bonn apre midi tou dimoun.

Mr Chair avan ki nou al lo la eski nou kapab fini avek (2) (1).  Annou tonm dakor avan lo sa bann legal persons ek legal arrangements.  SS Payet in dir mon ki i paret ki zot dakor pou tir ‘a partner of a Partnership under the Civil Code of Seychelles’ anba legal arrangements e met li anba legal persons si mon konpran byen.  Donk nou a tir sa la.  E nou a met li la.

Donk nou, nou’n dakor ki pou annan de kategori legal persons and (sorry) de kategori entities enn se legal persons, enn se legal arrangements.  Prezan nou kapab regard kestyon Onorab Andre.

 

MR SPEAKER

Zis en moman, i annan en komanter mon krwar AG i oule fer.  AG.

 

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL MR FRANK ALLY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Mr Georges mon krwar, Onorab Georges I believe si nou pou fer sa sanzman then i pou vin ‘a partnership’ e non pa ‘a partner’. 

Because ler nou ti pe koz en legal arrangement la nou ti pe koz en partner.  So now if we are going to tackle a legal person then it would be the partnership is that agreeable?  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi AG.  Onorab Henrie i lo menm pwen?  Yes go ahead.

 

HON GERVAIS HENRIE

Lo sa seksyon kot nou ete Mr Chair de pti pwen mon ti annan.  Letan mon pe get dan 2 (1) mon note ki Korperativ i pa vin dan sa bann lalis la akoz nou konmans annan Korperativ dan Sesel sa i premye.

E dezyenm dan 2 kot i dir ‘This Act shall not apply to’ what is the definition of listed company ki i pa aplike pou li?  Mon ti ava kontan panel i eksplik mwan silvouple.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi.  Panel.   Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Zis pou pran premye kestyon Onorab avan.  Rezon ki nou’n met sa provizyon ki allow Minister to enkli additional persons i senpleman par rapor to sa lanvironnman ki nou pe operate ladan, kot espesyalman nou pe war i annan bokou sanzman or nouvo bann striktir ki prezan zot osi i enportan pou, pou capture zot.

Par egzanp dan sa ka koumsa nou pe war nowadays nou pe war virtual asset currencies i the hot topic e i annan prezans.  E menm isi Sesel dan nou konteks offshore nou pe war ki nou annan bann lakonpannyen ki deza zot osi pe engage dan bann aktivite.  E i se, i se bann legzanp koumsa ki nou panse i pou allow en pe fleksibilite pou nou kapab capture sa bann lakonpannyen or sa bann aktivite ki pe ganny deroule anba sa Lalwa BO.

Akoz ler ou pou get in terms of like virtual asset i en keksoz ki deroul ase vit bann FATF  pe sey zot mye pou zot met bann standar pou kapab regulate sa sekter.  And the more ki zot pe sey konpran zot, zot pe bouz to diferan level ki fer li ase difisil.

I pou sa rezon ki nou’n deside i pli apropriye pou nou donn sa fleksibilite Minister pou kapab enkli bann additional person ki pou kapab ganny consider as resident agent right.  

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Eski oule vin lo pwen  ki’n ganny raise par Onorab Andre? Go ahead.

 

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

E lo kote lot kestyon for listed companies, listed companies lesansyalite first of all i ganny define anba Securities Act  i standar global pou donn sa egzanpsyon lo listed company par rapor to en listed company i pou bezwen annan en landrwa kot i pe rikord tou sa bann lenformasyon through zot securities, through a license securities exchange. 

And license securities exchange are well regulated entities across the globe and most of them are pou  ki donn zot plis sa pwa.  Zot part of AROSCO e i donn zot sa pwa ki montre ki sa bann ziridiksyon i ganny well regulated.  Dan ka listed companies nou konnen how volatile it is in terms of like movement of ownership of shares in a company  it is very difficult pou ou kapab idantifye lekel dimoun ki annan par deryer sa.      Me a en nivo en securities exchange zot, zot annan tou mekanizm an plas ki kapab fer zot idantifye e detekte lekel dimoun ki par deryer sa bann lakonpannyen e tousala i ganny rikorde properly. 

So se pou sa rezon ki bann recognized Securities exchange i pa donn sa lobligasyon or fardo sa pei petet ki pe form sa lakonpannyen me rather i reste on sa pei ki’n license sa securities exchange pou li annan sistenm an plas pou kapab rekonnet beneficial owner of the company.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Dr Fanny.

 

CEO  FSA DR STEVE FANNY

Zis pou elabor en pe lo sa ki Richard in dir lo listed company, ki Lalwa pe sey fer, Lalwa pa pe sey vin anmenn plis burden parey in dir.  If it ain’t broken don’t fix it.  Ler i come to listed company i deza annan en mekanizm an plas kot ou kapab konnen lekel beneficial owner klerman sa, mon pa bezwen al dan sa mekanizm.

Sanmenm sa ki zot fer sa egzanpsyon nou pe anmenn sa Lalwa pou ou kapab meet up bann deficiencies oubyen amelyor bann deficiencies ki nou kapab annan, pou nou idantifye beneficial owner.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Dr Fanny.  Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair mon, mon still pa ankor konpran akoz anba seksyon sub-section 3 of 2, Minis i bezwen fer en Notis akoz en notis i zis en Notis.  Akoz nou pa fer li preskrir anba Regilasyon koumsa si i annan issues i kapab ganny fer.  Akoz en notis sirtou an referans avek sa bann antite ki nou pe koze why, why a notice?  Akoz notice normalman i zis parey Minister shall give a notice pou commencement of en Lalwa.  Me fer li anba Regilasyon akoz i annan pouvwar pou fer Regilasyon anba seksyon 17.

Akoz nou bezwen met sa la kan i kapab ganny fer aplikasyon anba 17?  Mon konsern se sa why are we putting to de keksoz ki kapab vin konfizan dan Lalwa?  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.   AG.

 

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL  MR FRANK ALLY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Pou reponn sa kestyon mon krwar Onorab Andre i plito konsernen avek form plito ki sa sibstans mon krwar in satisfe avek sibstans.  Me when it comes to form sa notice i pou en S.I li akoz en notice i en Statutory Instrument. 

So i pou ganny pibliye konman en Statutory Instrument.  Zis parey en Regilasyon i en Statutory Instrument e i pou ganny laid before the National Assembly.  Mon’n war dan lepase kot tre souvan nou’n servi notis konman en Gazette Notice rather than konman en Statutory Instrument.  I annan ler ki akoz la i pou annan en legislative purpose and intent.  Once ki en dapre Interpretation and General Provisions Act o moman ki en notis son purpose i legislative i pou bezwen ganny fer konman en S.I.

E parey ki dan tou Lalwa i dir ‘The Minister shall by notice give the commencement date of a legislation’ it’s a notice me nou pibliy li konman en S.I because si ou al get dan IGPA ou pou war definisyon Statutory Instrument i any order, regulation, notice ki annan en, en purpose Lezislatif as oppose to administratif.  So i pou, i pou vin devan Lasanble i pou ganny laid before the National Assembly as an S.I.  Thank you Mr Speaker.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi AG.  Yes Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Dernyen pti issue lo sa size Mr Chair.  Si 17 i donn li pouvwar pou fer Regilasyon akoz nou met sa la?

Se sa mon konsern se akoz dan en Lalwa nou pe fer de keksoz ki kapab ganny fer dan enn.  So he has the power to make Regulation with regards to this, so why?  Ou konpran?

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr chair pou reponn Onorab Andre  en Principle Act parey sa enn i kapab donn en zofisye, en Minis pouvwar pou fer Delegated Legislation ki en S.I.  

E parey Attorney General in dir en S.I i konpri bokou keksoz Rules, Regulations, Notices eksetera.  17 i donn li pouvwar fer Regilasyon 3 (3), 2 (3) i donn li pouvwar issue en Notis donk  i 2 pouvwar diferan enn se ki i kapab fer Regilasyon lot se ki  i kapab issue en notis.  Akoz ki 2 (3) i notis e non pa en Regilasyon?  Se ki ler ou pe azout en keksoz oubyen tir lo en lalis i pa en Regilasyon ki tir en keksoz, en Regilasyon se en Subsidiary Legislation ki donn ou detay lo en keksoz ki ou pa’n prevwar dan tou son lanpler dan the Enabling Act.  En notis i zis that’s what it says i pe dir ou mon pe azout enn oubyen de lezot keksoz a lalis ki egziste i pa en Regulation.

Alor i bezwen en notis so i pa kapab al anba 17 akoz 17 i limited to Regulations i bezwen antre dan en lot landrwa e se pou sa rezon ki zot in fer li antre la.  Mon, mon pa war ki sa i annan lo kote laform mon pa war ki i annan en problenm.         Lo kote sibstans kekfwa Onorab Andre i ava mentenir son, son kestyon se a dir ki i ti ava prefere ki i vin konman en Lalwa olye en Notis.

Me mon krwar rezon ki in donnen se ki i bezwen fleksib e in any event nou pou annan sa Lasanble pou annan en pouvwar oversight akoz i, i pou en lamannman Lalwa.  Si ou regard byen 2 (3) donk i pou en S.I ki annan en bi Lezislatif e donk nou, nou pou annan oversight non selman en oversight role me en Legislative Role lo sa notis e nou kapab quash li si nou anvi oubyen les pase si nou pa anvi.  Akoz dan son, dan son parol menm Clause 2 (3) i dir ‘may apply or vary the provisions of this Act’.

Savedir  i pe amann sa Lalwa donk i pe fer en keksoz Lezislatif donk nou, nou annan dernyen pouvwar lo la akoz pouvwar Lezislatif i avek nou selman e non pa avek okenn lezot dimoun.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges.  Nou kapab move on Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Nou’n ariv lo Section 3 regarding the definition for resident agent.  Me avan sa i paret nou annan en issue Onorab Georges i oule, i oule raise ankor.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Pillay.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Yes Mr Chair.  Mersi annefe avan ki nou al lo definition registered agent anba menm Clause nou annan definition beneficial owner  ki la devan nou.

E la nou annan en pti problenm.  Nou annan plizyer pti problenm.  Enn se ‘beneficial owner means a natural person or persons’ e nou konpran akoz zot in fer sa.  Akoz i kapab annan plizyer sirtou si threshold i 10poursan.  So there can be several me le moman ki ou met person or persons ou pa kapab met ultimately owns or controls, ou bezwen dir who akoz natural person or persons or ultimately own or owns or control or controls which makes it heavy.

Donk nou bezwen, nou bezwen revwar sa.  Dezyenm pwen se ‘customer’, ‘customer’ pa’n ganny defini dan Beneficial Ownership Act.  I ganny defini dan AML Act e donk okenn dimoun ki pe lir sa Beneficial Ownership Act pa pou konnen kisisa ki en ‘customer’.  E apre nou annan sa (with the threshold specified in the Second Schedule) e mon ava enkli mon lekor devan bann legal draftsperson me dan en Act i pa normal pou met en subordinate Clause dan brackets.

Donk nou annan 3 problenm la ki fodre nou war.  Katriyenm problenm se parey Onorab Andre in dir sa mo ‘natural person’ e sa ki mon konpran avek sa, se ki sa ki zot pe rode se the ultimate natural person ki kontrol kekfwa en la compagnie ki kontrol en lot, kontrol en lot e ki eventually i kontrol e nonm ini.  So you want to go all the way back to the physical person.  So eski nou devret servi ‘natural person’ or ‘physical person’ as oppose to ‘legal person’?

E si nou servi li la nou pou bezwen servi li plitar osi, la.  Par egzanp kot nou koz lo persons akoz en pe pli ba nou koz lo legal person, alor nou bezwen re revwar en pti pe sa definisyon pou fer li dir egzakteman sa ki nou anvi ki i dir.  Mersi Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel?  Yes AG.

 

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL MR FRANK ALLY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Mon, mon konstate ki boner Onorab Andre in raise sa issue ki nou pa’n define en ‘natural person’ e mon krwar again nou bezwen fall back lo IGPA – Interpretation and General Provisions Act i pa defini ‘natural person’ per se.

Me selman i dir ou poudir en individual includes a natural person.  So baze lo la mon krwar i en terminolozi, i en lekspresyon ki akseptab e ki i refer lo parey Onorab Georges in dir lo sa personn, lo sa endividi ki akoz dan Lalwa i annan zis de kalite dimoun i annan en, en legal person ek en endividi oubyen  en natural person.  So mon krwar sa ki bi sa Lalwa.  Mersi Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

SS.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair an relasyon avek ‘customer’ kekfwa nou ti kapab met sa definisyon an relasyon avek AML, definitivman.  Apre secondly sa bracket (with the threshold specifying the Second Schedule) nou ti pe fer propozisyon pou retir li an antye akoz nou parey mon’n dir pli boner se nou pou met nou pe propoz en lamannman dan seksyon 5 ki nou ti pou met en additional seksyon (5) (8) ki nou ti pou met ‘the minim, the minimum threshold’ i pou ganny mete dan Regilasyon.

Akoz sa issue ‘the legal person and legal arrangement’ ki nou ti pe mansyonnen pli boner so i pou fer ki en pe pli defini dan Regilasyon.  So propozisyon ti nou pou delete sa konponan.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

So si nou konpran ou byen, i still annan konsern ki’n ganny raise regarding sa definisyon of beneficial owner.  E lesplikasyon ki nou’n gannyen avek, avek FSA, avek FIU sa i en norm sort of enternasyonal.

I pa vedir si i en norm enternasyonal i pa kapab annan, annan fot ladan.  So the question which begs itself i se ki nou pou fer serten lamannman regarding sa definisyon.  Akoz i annan en mo ki Mr Fanny ti servi taler se sa mo ‘benefit’.  Sa dimoun i bezwen pe derive en benefits.  So nou pou anmenn li dan Regilasyon, prezan ou pe dir nou pou azout definisyon ‘customer’ savedir ladan which would come petet apre definisyon beneficial owner then.  Ok and then seksyon 5, section 5 nou a fer li la Mr Chairman pou ki nou pa bezwen retourn lo la ankor.

In section 5 ou ti pe sizere nou fer?  En pti moman.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Sorry wi anba Seksyon 5 nou ti pou met en additional Seksyon ki i ti pou vin zis apre 7 ki nou ti pe propoze pou met ‘The minimum threshold for identification of the beneficial owners of legal person and legal arrangement shall be such as may be prescribed by Regulations’.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  Nou ankor lo beneficial owner eski mon kapab ganny mon’n swiv, mon’n swiv konsiny Secretary of State e mon’n define customer ‘as shall be ascribe to it’ epi nou ava met son full name of the AML Act, if that’s ok?  Donk sa i get rid of the problem with customer me nou still annan sa problenm ‘natural person or persons who ultimately own or controls’.  E or the natural apre mon mazinen nou’n bezwen osi dir ‘other natural person or persons on whose behalf a transaction is being carried out’.  So ki mannyer nou pou, ki mannyer nou pou rezourd sa, sa Angle la?

Natural person or persons who ultimately’ oubyen nou ava dir ‘means one or more natural persons who ultimately own’.  Ki mannyer nou pou, ki mannyer nou pou convert ‘owns or controls’?  ‘Having ultimate ownership or controls’ would be, would be another way a neutral way.  ‘A natural person or persons having ultimate ownership or control of a customer’.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman mwan, mon pou demann panel pou nou sey move things along.

Akoz nou, nou’n spend almost one hour just on the definition of beneficial ownership so, get it done get it right and let’s move on.  Akoz we are seeing too many vacillations on the part of the panel.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  AG.

 

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL MR FRANK ALLY

Mon krwar sa ki mon sizere petet ki Onorab Georges i kontinyen, mon krwar si ou kontinyen i al ‘And include those person who exercise ultimate effective control over a legal person or a legal arrangement’. 

Mon krwar sa ki, akoz what it ki i pe fer,  se ki pe montre poudir fodre ou annan i sa dimoun ki annan sa kontrol lo sa legal person or sa legal arrangement me an menm tan dan en premye vole i koz lo customer.  E si prezan ou pou al lo customer anba AML la ou pou war in relation it’s more than a transaction.  Me selman i kouver tou lede.  I kouver sa dimoun ki pe annan  … ki pe annan sa kontrol lo sa tranzaksyon, e an menm tan sa dimoun ki pou annan sa kontrol lo sa legal person oubyen sa legal arrangement.

Dan lesans ki si par egzanp i annan en shareholder ki anyway mon pa bezwen eksplike it’s obvious for Onorab Georges.  So ler nou get FATF definition i more or less same as this one, so it  means a legal person or person who ultimately owns.  Non, non nou tir sa ‘s’ avek ‘owns’ avek ‘control’.  Me selman of a customer nou go back to, nou fall back onto the AML Act parey ou’n fer ‘or the natural person on whose behalf a transaction is being conducted and include those person’.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Se egzakteman sa Mr Chair mersi.  Se pou sa rezon mon ti pe propoze, beneficial owner means ‘one or more natural persons who ultimately own or control the customer’. 

Then that gets rid of the problem of the –  E ki nou fer avek ‘customer’ eski, eski Attorney General anvi ki nou gard ‘customer’ oubyen nou tir ‘customer’ e nou met ‘who controls another’?  Maintain it for the time being?  Perfect.  Mersi Mr Chair, we can move on.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Georges.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  So the next, the next step was to look at the definition of resident agent.  Mon prezimen panel in ganny sans go through the comments that were made regarding that so mon ava turn over to the panel.  Me konsern ki ti’n ganny raise se who will regulate the resident agent to ensure entities are meeting the obligation of knowing their clients by collecting and checking KYC which is Know Your Customer and CDD which is Customer Due Diligence?  

So if for FIU, FSA and Ministry of Finance can weigh in on this, nou kapab agree on a definition pou resident agent and then move to the next one which would be the definition of service address.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Pillay.  Panel.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair kekfwa zis avan nou al lo la, en lot Seksyon ki nou pe demann en pti propoz lamannman, anba se dan seksyon 3 anba ‘listed company means’ zis avan ‘legal person’.

I en pti pe anler yes, yes ‘listed company means’ anba (a) (2) ‘an exchange which is licensed in a’ anba son konponan zis avan Member nou pou met ‘an Ordinary Member’.  Apre on the second component resident agent propozisyon se pou nou delete (d) ‘a receiver appointed under Section 20 of the Protective Self Companies Act pou nou delete sa provizyon se akoz PCC i ganny incorporated under The Companies Act ki savedir pou relevan avek (a).

 

MR SPEAKER

Dakor.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Ok Mr Chairman.  And who will be regulating the resident agent?

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Resident agent for the purpose of BO Act it would be regulated by the FSA avek FIU.  This is why en pti pe pli devan ler nou pou ariv anba (4) nou entrodwir nou, nou pou propoz en Clause ki pou donn sa pouvwar FSA ek FIU pou kapab regulate zot.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair.  And regarding that if in relation to the issue of the company secretary who is not a regulating and a reporting person dan AML will that also be included in the amendment which will be proposing under section 4 when it comes to company secretary?   Akoz nou’n deza fer reference to company secretary anba AML I think.  Nou’n met li anba AML if I’m not mistaken, but just clarify if that’s, if that’s going to cover everything.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Si mon’n konpran ou byen, si en company secretary would be included as a resident agent ki prezan i pou bezwen be regulated for the purpose of the AML Act.  

Yeah that’s correct.  This is why ki nou’n dekrir sekreter konman en resident agent e i pou ganny regulated parey ler nou pou entrodwi sa bout anba, dan anba section 4.  Mersi.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you Mr Chair.  Because sa i bann i, i basis of the comments which were raised so it was important that the regulator i communicate to the sector that their comments have been given thought in relation to what they’ve proposed.  We’re still on section 3 the interpretation of service address I think you might need to be making changes to the service address so you’ve given consideration to that?  Mersi Mr Chairman.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel, Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Pou service address ki nou’n agree is to remove the word ‘office’ after ‘physical’ ki i a be read the means ‘the physical address of the’.

E nou ti anvi propoze vi ki sa service address i par rapor to particulars  of beneficial owners e osi i ganny entrodwi anba pou, pou idantifye particulars of nominee ki nou ti anvi entrodwi after ‘address of the’ retir ‘individual’ met ‘beneficial owner or nominee’ for the purpose of service of communication e nou aret li la.  So apre communication nou delete ‘’to him’.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi, Mr Rampal.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Yes Mr Chair.  Just so that nou, nou get it right so nou pe dir ‘the past individual for the beneficial owner or nominee’ or  ‘and nominee’?  ‘Or’, and then at the end i ‘him or her’, ‘him or her’ to satisfy the gender conscious. 

Ok, Mr Chairman nou, nou carry on.  Section (4) (a) is the next one where there was a comment in relation to the definition to competent Authorities is as commence why should the FIU be the competent Authorities for Entities in Schedule Part (a) company registered under Companies Act in 72 and why not the Registrar of the companies?

Mon krwar sa kestyon has come up once in a while so its, its important now to settle the matter and make sure people understand the sector understands why the FIU is going to be the competent Authority.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel, SS.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair.  Letan nou regard comment ki SIFSA in fer anyway nou ti adres li dan konsiltasyon avek zot.  Dan konteks ler ou regard resours sa lokasyon pou pei vi ki FIU ti annan sa eleman ki i ti pe kouver anba AML e i deza annan sa kapasite anba AML nou ti war ki plito sa resours i still kontinyen avek FIU.

Me selman evantyelman nou pou bezwen build the capacity at Rezistrar Zeneral pou li taken over sa rol evantyelman.  So sa i en desizyon Policy ki nou’n pran lo kot Gouvernman pou met sa provizyon part (a) anba FIU e parey zot konnen part (b) i anba FSA akoz aktyelman konmela nou annan sa de bout Rezistrar.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok.  Onorab Henrie.

 

HON GERVAIS HENRIE

Mersi Mr Chair.  Baze lo sa ki SS Payet in dir nou, mon anvi i reasir nou Lasanble akoz ou’n dir poudir i pou en, i pou en Policy decision in the long term pou beef up Registrar.

Selman ki i pa ganny oubliye that process i actually ganny fer akoz sa ki swe Lasanble pou ki vreman Registrar i pran sa rol ki i devret pran dan sa modern setup.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  SS.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mersi Onorab.  Wi mon kapab donn sa garanti ek Lasanble ki this is vizyon ki mon krwar definitivman Gouvernman e pei i anvi ale.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi SS.  Mon krwar nou’n ariv a lafen si napa okenn lot komanter lo part 1.  Yes, Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Zis pou mon retourn lo sa ki nou ti mon ti pe pas lo la pli boner ki Onorab ti demande an term supervision of, of resident person.  Nou’n war li relevan ki anba sa seksyon 4 pou nou entrodwi en sub-section 2 ki pou empower, ki pou empower the competent Authority pou zot kapab ‘conduct monitoring and assessing compliance with this law’.

E menm pou zot fer lenspeksyon pou zot access lofis.  So i annan en provizyon ki nou ti ava voudre rekomande la e menm osi tou pou nou entrodwi sa bout kot i annan sanksyon kot en nenport ki personn ki, ki anpes Lotorite fer son louvraz par rapor to, to lenspeksyon.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Yes Mr Chair.  Mon ti pou al demann li premyerman son si i annan en wording ki i oule, oule propoze so ou pe propoze ki then (4) currently nou annan sa (4), sa premye la.

So sa i a pe vin (4) (1) and then ou ava annan en (4) (2).  Ok then if you can propose the wording so that we can, nou kapab rikord li please.  Thank you.

 

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Thank you.  So dan sub-section 2 i konmans ‘without limiting the generality of sub-section 1, for the sole purpose of monitoring and assessing compliance with this Act, the competent Authority may during normal business hours and after giving reasonable notice to the legal person or legal arrangement as the case may be’ – then we introduce sub (a) ‘access the principle place of business of its resident agent; and part (b) inspect the documents required by this Act to be kept by the legal person or the legal arrangement’.  ‘Sub-section 3 any persons who in any manner impedes, prevents or obstructs the competent authority in the conduct of an inspection under this Act (under this Section) rather commits an offence and is liable upon conviction to a fine not less than SCR50,000thousand’.  That’s it.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Okenn komanter lo sa new addition?  Yes Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Dan sa dernyen sub paragraph 3 kot in met not less than SCR50,000thousand mon krwar pratik i ki ou pa met more than.  Mon prefere ki akoz letan ou met not less si en first offender en genuine mistake kekfwa vre in fer en, en lerer in ganny komet letan ou met not less than SCR50,000thousand so it will be SCR50,000thousand and over. 

So there’s no cap in regards to where to stop mon, mon prefere ki ou met en cap kot i arete aprezan anba la i, i donn sa diskresyon sa Ziz pou li kapab dir ok the first offender mon a donn li R10,000mil as a fine or so.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Andre.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Sanmenm sa Mr Chair akoz mon krwar eski, eski FIU pe sey dir not exceeding 50,000thousand oubyen, oubyen mon krwar sa ki zot pe sey dir.

Akoz ler ou dir less than 50,000thousand savedir ou kapab mont pli o so eski ou ceiling i 50,000thousand?

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes not exceeding, not exceeding.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mr Chair.  Mon ti anvi zis dir ki the same, the same thing applies in Clause (11) (4), ‘a fine not less that 50,000thousand’.  

So i en minimum fine si zot anvi so basically to deter people from impeding the competent Authority from coming in so i pa en, i pa en maximum i en minimum.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok dakor savedir i kler.  Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Zis pou azout en pti bout in line ki Onorab in dir i lenportans ki i vini avek lenformasyon lo beneficial owner i enportan pou li be access so as such nou anvi met sanksyon ki i ganny pran konman dissuasive pou anpes bann dimoun deter or anpes zot pou zot pa kit lenformasyon regarding beneficial owner.

Se pou sa rezon nou’n pran en lapros koumsa.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Bon nou ava pran en vot lo part 1 as amended ki konpri Clause 1 ziska 4 e ki form par dan sa Bill.  Mon ava demann tou Manm ki an faver?  Okenn Manm ki kont?  Madanm Deputy Clerk.

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Chair.  Bonn apre midi tou dimoun.  Mon’n rikord 22 Manm ki’n vot an faver.  E personn kont.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Madanm Deputy Clerk.  Savedir part 1 of Beneficial Ownership Bill, 2020 in ganny aprouve par Lasanble Nasyonal.  Onorab Pillay nou a kontinyen.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair.  So nou pran the next part which is Part 2 ki konmans lo section 5.  E si napa Manm ki annan konsern eksprimen apard ki sa konsern ki Onorab Georges in raise earlier regarding the use of brackets.  Mon pa konnen si i oule maintain, maintain son largiman ki sa i ganny sanze.

Mon krwar SS Payet ti annan propozisyon pou lamannman at 5 (7) or lo konmansman at part 5 (1)?  Mr Chairman I’ll turn over to the panel avek ou permisyon pou zot fer zot lamannman.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel comments?

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Wi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair mon krwar in fini ganny fer the delete of the bracket with the threshold specify in the second threshold Second Schedule.  So nou pou delete sa osi e propozisyon pou met en Seksyon adisyonnel (5) (8) ok?

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Chair what i ki mon propoz avek SS Payet se ki nou ava fer sa lamannman when we reach (5) (8) koumsa nou ava fini go through akoz nou annan konsern ki’n ganny raise 5 (6) which is an relasyon avek FIU to maintain the register be mon krwar 5 (1) (d), (e) ok yes.  Mr Chair the concern that was expressed is that 5 (1) (e) wi kot nou annan en konsern ki’n ganny raise by SIFSA my apologies Mr Chairman.

Ki zot in dir poudir the section prescribes the content of the BO register it requires to enter in the register not only beneficial owner but also nominator in case of the nominee in case the nominee hold shares.

Zot pe demande what is the difference between the nominator and the beneficial owner e zot pe eksprimen ki the wording of nominator is new to the industry.  E zot komanter zot pe dir i the definition of nominator seems the same as beneficial owner e zot komanter final se ki therefore the section is not necessary so mon ava les FIU relate their opinion on that for us.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Lo nominator i, i pa li leka akoz parey nou war bann structure ki ase complex kot i annan multiple layers diferan entities or legal arrangements i ganny servi in between, in a lot of cases the nominator would not necessary be the, the beneficial owner parey nou’n dir.

The beneficial owner i sa natural person, the person konmsi ki parey nou’n dir leker ki pe bate konmsi but in a lot of cases until you reach there ou bezwen pas atraver en ta striktir e nominator is within, zis i dan part of the structure i pa neseserman the beneficial ownerSo se pou sa rezon the nominator in not all cases is the beneficial owner e ki sa seksyon i relevan.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair lo sa menm Clause menm 5 (1) (e) little one sa fraz the particulars and other details of the interest is, is vague. 

Nominee i bezwen, i bezwen donn name, residential address, service address, date of birth, nationality of each nominee holding the interest on behalf of beneficial owner and the particulars and other details of the interest held by the nominee.  What are those details?  Or would just the particulars of the interest suffice?

 

MR SPEAKER

Panel.  Yes, Mr Rampal.

 

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Lo sa lapse other details of interest held by the nominator, parey nou’n eksplike pli boner in terms of definisyon of beneficial owners, i enportan pou ou konnen sa nominator dan ki fason ki i pe hold lentere dan sa legal person or legal arrangement.

So which is why nou pa pou konnen, nou pa pou kapab preskri dan ki lenstans egzakteman, akoz ou pa pou anvi restrict which is why ou kit li ase ouver pou kapab allow sa nominator pou li eksplike dan ki fason ki li i pe tenir lentere or i pe tenir in the absence of better word konmsi i pe tenir lentere on behalf of  en nominee.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes AG.

 

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL  MR FRANK ALLY

Petet pou propoze petet i kapab en egzekiter oubyen en fiduciary dan sa ka non.  Kot li sa, sa propriyete i ganny vested dan li temporarily prezan li i pe, i pe nominate  en dimoun.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi AG.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Wi se sa mo other details ki sa mon konpran clearly I know what they’re trying to get at.  Me other details.  Ler mon pou, ler mon pou anvoy en keksoz zot poudir mon, mon poudir zot what details do you exactly want?

Sa ki fodre nou fer se Lalwa fodre i spesifik even taking away the word ‘other’ would be enough the particulars and details of the interest that means you have to do everything.

Me le moman ki ou met ‘other’ it gives it a vague, a vague aspect.  Alor mon ti ava at least si ‘other’, give particulars give details that means everything that you have.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Georges.  Onorab Henrie.

 

HON GERVAIS HENRIE

Mersi Mr Chair.  Lo sa menm pwen akoz ler mon, mon pe lir pou menm ennler bann Lalwa mannyer i ekri konmsi i it’s not plain English.  Akoz mon pe asiz la mon pe mazinen poudir be eski, so mon anvi demann zot pou zot satisfer mon larepons.

Eski par egzanp sa bann provizyon la i pe demann klerman par egzanp pou sa bann lakonpannyen pou provide striktir zot lakonpannyen sa bann dimoun ki pe hold bann shares ki kantite, ki kantite shares zot pe hold lo non en lot dimoun.  Eski basically sa bann lenformasyon ki sa bann dimoun ouswa sa bann lakonpannyen i bezwen provide sa bann Lotorite konpetan.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel. Mr Rampal.

 

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Sa, sa provizyon i senpleman zis pe donn leksplikasyon parey nou’n dir beneficial owner li i sa ultimate person in between i kapab annan plizyer lakonpannyen or lezot striktir or menm endividi ki kapab hold lentere prezan i pe zis capture in terms of lekel sa dimoun sa nominee ki pe hold sa lentere on behalf of en lot personn.

Prezan ki enportan osi tou regardless of sa nominee i enportan pou nou konn lenformasyon lo sa nominee, be it si ou en natural person or si ou en entity ou en arrangement pou sa bann lenformasyon ganny rikorde dan en rezis.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Yes Mr Chairman.  Mon, mon oule zis remind Mr Rampal and the panel that they blame the FATF for moving the goalpost so also be careful about them ler pou met other details.

Akoz parey Onorab Georges pe dir you are also moving the goalpost by not making the Clause as clear and as succinct as possible.  So it’s incumbent ki nou fer li kler so we are deleting the word ‘other’ from the Clause?  Are we agreeing to that?

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes, Mr Rampal.

 

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  I an prensip i pou ok akoz i pa neseserman en standar ki zot vreman partikilye lo la.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Onorab Pillay nou a bouze.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair.  So la nou pou lo …

 

MR SPEAKER

En moman.  Onorab William.

 

HON WAVEN WILLIAM

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker mon ti anvi zis demann en pti klarifikasyon lo 5 (e) (2) mon pe zis mazinen si eski nou bezwen definisyon pou nominator akoz lafason ki sa in ganny ekri eski nou bezwen en definition?  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Mr Rampal.

 

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Si ou move to sub-section 5 i donn definisyon of nominee sub-section, sub-section 5(a) i nominee e sub-section 5 (b) i nominator.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you Mr Chair.  So nou, nou move to Section (5) (6) ki relate to FIU being the custodian of the register.  Me just before i paret zot annan something zot would like to propose, e mon war lanmen Onorab Andre anler.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mr mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair avan nou al lo 5 (6) mon ti a kontan 5 (3).  Letan nou get 5 (3) i dir failure to maintain a register of beneficial owner, owners under sub-section 1 or to maintain accurate and updated information under sub-section 2 by legal person or legal arrangements as the case may be commits an offence.  

Mon krwar nou bezwen osi annan en pti pe – annan en pe konprenezon akoz letan en legal person or legal arrangements i kapab pou li maintain son register i pe demann lenformasyon avek sa bann, sa bann beneficial ki lo son register as beneficial owner.  Si in annan okenn laranzman kekfwa zot FIU zot in konnen poudir i annan serten sanzman ladan.

Prezan letan ou vin kot mwan, mon pe rode sa lenformasyon mon krwar i ti a bon ki nou mete without en keksoz konmsi ki dir ki si nou pa pe maintain sa register without konmsi.  Mon pe sey mazin sa mo ki mon poudir konmsi nou, nou pe montre ou ki poudir nou’n fer – par egzanp dizon mon’n ekri en let mon montre ou mon poudir mon pe fer sa travay ‘’without good cause’’ plito ok?  So nou bezwen met en keksoz ladan ki pe montre ki poudir mon, mon pe fer sa dan bonn fwa akoz sansan mon pou ganny fine e nou tou bann avoka bann Estate Agent, nou, nou pou an defo, me selman kekfwa nou pa an defo, akoz nou pe fer sa legzersis pou nou rod sa beneficial owner oubyen amann sa register accordingly.  So mon krwar nou bezwen kler la akoz si non sa si nou vini ou dir mon i pa annord alors ou pou fine mon en R50,000mil.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel, AG.

 

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL MR FRANK ALLY

Thank you Mr Chair.  Mon krwar ki si the failure i pou en criminal offence.  So si ou kapab montre poudir ou i annan bann eleman pou sa lofans pou kapab prouv en lofans.

Me si ou’n seye akoz ou napa kontrol.  Ou anvoy en let ou’n kree en konpanny ou anvoy en let or zot donn ou serten non apre i annan serten sanzman.  E apre ou  dir ek sa beneficial owner donn ou detay e i pa donn ou, sa mon krwar i montre poudir ou’n fer serten request.  So ou pa’n fail vreman.  E parske pou ou kapab comply avek ou lobligasyon, ou bezwen kapab ganny sa bann lenformasyon from sa beneficial owner.

Mon krwar la petet ou pou kapab annan en defans ki ou pa’n komet en lofans.  Parske si ou en lofans ou bezwen fer en lanket e baze lo sa lanket ki sa dimoun pou ganny pourswiv.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi AG.  Onorab Henrie.

 

HON GERVAIS HENRIE

Mr Chair.  Zis pou permet mwan demann en kestyon akoz zis konman Onorab Andre in lev sa kestyon la lo fine donk across sa Lalwa mon regard fines in ganny enpoze se R50,000mil.  Prezan si nou pe koz en Lalwa ki lo standar enternasyonal e bann lakonpannyen ki nou pe deal avek i kapab komet lofans anba sa Act.  La prensipalman i bann lakonpannyen etranze ki nou’n tann dir R50,000mil pou zot i konmsi i nanryen ditou lakantite tranzaksyon ki zot fer par zour, eski sa sonm o rezonnab?

Ki mannyer nou’n tonm lo sa sonm R50,000mil?  Akoz ler mon pe get dan lezot pei par egzanp Lalmanny nou pe koz €100,000mil nou akoz nou pe koz 50,000mil ki rezon det 50,000mil?  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel? Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Petet mon lesplikasyon i pa al plis lo mannyer nou’n tonm lo sa 50,000mil, me selman parey nou’n dir sa Lalwa i pa neseserman zis pou sa sekter offshore li right i osi tou pou domestik.  Nou annan bann lakonpannyen domestik nou annan bann pti lakonpannyen bann gro lakonpannyen, medium size company so prezan i nou’n bezwen balanse between kwa ki pou rezonnab dan konteks domestik e osi tou kwa ki kapab byen en deterrent osi tou pou bann dissuasive ek bann proportionate pou bann foreign companies, IBCs.

I koumsa ki nou, nou’n bezwen balanse, akoz nou pa’n anvi osi tou kot nou met en amount kot parey nou konnen bann IBCs can be big companies me prezan ler ou gete dan konteks domestik i pa vreman realistik i plis, i pou touy dan the domestic sector as well.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Onorab Henrie.

 

HON GERVAIS HENRIE

Mon konpran leksplikasyon ki’n donnen me i pa’n zanmen travers zot lespri poudir be ou fer de kategori lofans si en lakonpannyen lokal?  En Bureau de Change par egzanp i pti, pti apre ler ou pe deal ek en lot.

 

MR SPEAKER

  1. AG.

 

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL MR FRANK ALLY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Mon krwar nou bezwen pran kont ki sa i pou each failure, each such failure.  Now i kapab annan en lakonpannyen ki annan 100 shareholders e pou sak failure pou sak beneficial owner ou pou pou bezwen pey en fine ki not exceeding R50,000mil.

Mon pa konnen si prezan dan plas not exceeding R50,000mil, nou oule met Onorab Henrie ti a kontan propoze ki it should be not less than R50,000thousand.  Me selman rezon pou sa se ki parey Mr Rampal in fer resorti nou pe fer en Lalwa pou look at bann company.

Bann domestic companies osi, e osi bann lezot arrangement bann partnerships well, bann partners dan bann Partnership.  Unless ki parey ou pe parey Onorab Henrie i dir nou, nou kategoriz nou annan de kategori petet i kapab en pe danzere, en pe difisil.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi AG.   Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman apre i enportan, i enportan pou note poudir avan ou deside pran konpannyen dimoun ou bezwen fer KYC;- ou bezwen fer customer due diligence ou pa al rod en boug ki ou pa konnen apre si demen si ou pou ekri li ou pa pou al ganny lenformasyon e ou pou al pey en fine R50,000mil.

So i enportan that’s why lanfaz i lo sa bann Antite ki pou incorporate oubyen vin sa registered agent fer zot travay osi pou zot etabli, etabli ki kalite konpannyen ki zot pe deal avek.  The onus is on them as well e that’s why Labank li i annan son threshold fines i bokou pli o, lot i bokou pli o.

Pou enportan Mr Rampal ti pe vin propoz serten lamannman so si nou ti kapab pran sa bann lamannman then nou kapab move to section 6 mon konnen it’s late in the hour Mr Chairman so nou pa oule kontinyen lo, lo en deba lo sa seksyon.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Mr Rampal.

 

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Lo sub-section 2 nou pe propoze zis pou nou ranplas sa mo ‘updated’ with ‘up to date’.  E parey dan sub-section 3 as well pou nou retir sa mo ‘updated’ pou nou ranplas li par ‘up to date’.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman lot pwen ki SIFSA ti annan in terms of konsern ki zot ti’n raise was in relation to Section 5 (6).  Me mon krwar Section 5 (6) in ganny eksplike abundantly par FIU e Minister Finans.

Akoz sa se FIU ki pou annan custodianship of sa register.  So mon pa krwar nou bezwen retourn dan sa deba.

Me SS Payet ti’n propoz en lamannman at 5(8) pou introduce en new Clause 5(8).  Si i ti kapab fer sa la, then nou ti a kapab fini avek Clause, Clause 5.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  SS.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair propozisyon se enkli another Seksyon anba 5 ki pou vin 5 (8).  Ki pou lir ‘The minimum threshold for identification of the beneficial owners of legal person and legal arrangement shall be such as may be prescribed by Regulations’.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok.  Okenn komanter?  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Pa lo sa Mr Chair.  Me lo zis sa enn avan.  In fact mon’n fer en lamannman me mon pa tro sir si mon annan rezon.  The register of beneficial owners required to be updated under sub-section 2 it read ‘shall be with such information’.

Is it ‘shall be updated with such information and in such form’?  Or that ‘the register shall contain such information in such a form as may be prescribed’?  Is it the updated that you’re talking about here?  Or is it the register itself?

 

MR SPEAKER

Panel, Mr Rampal.

 

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Shall contain.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok, Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  So sa i konklir Section 5.  Then move on to Section 6.  Mon krwar Section 6 i kler.  Section 7 kot i koz the different forms of maintaining the register.  

And we come to Section 8 (1) which is a retention period, e la the trade in raise en konsern regarding sa.  Kot zot in dir sub-section 1 will affect every single entity in Seychelles it is very, it is a very broad sub-section and seems not to be related to be a registers which records are required in this Sections 8.  Section 8 does not talk about records at all the purpose of this Section is not clear.  And they talk about the definition of ceases to operate required.  The list of required records required.  And their proposal is to replace sub-section 8(1) with ‘requirement to retain the registers for 7 years after the date of which the company is dissolved or otherwise ceases to exist, or 5 years after the date on which the company ceases to be a customer’.  E zot pe fer nou konpran ki dan wording is taken from FATF petrology 24. 9.

So vi ki nou bann lekip in sorti diskit kot FATF, Luxembourg e Paris e everywhere else pou sey lager pou nou sorti lo bann sanksyon.  If they can comment on that then we can move on.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes panel comments, SS.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair.  Prenan kont komanter from SIFSA, nou pe propoz detrwa lamannman anba 8 (1).  So ‘every legal person or legal arrangement which’ nou ti pou delete sa ‘cease to operate’.

Every legal person or legal arrangement upon dissolution or cease to operate or cease to exist in the Republic shall through their resident agent hand over all require records under this Act’.   So i spesifik anba sa Lalwa ‘through its resident agent.

 

MR SPEAKER

Resident agent.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Ki propozisyon nou ti pe fer la se ‘upon dissolution or’.  Apre ‘under this section’ olye ‘section’ nou met ‘under this Act’.  So i pli presi lo bann records requirement.

 

MR SPEAKER

Any comments lo lamannman?  Si non.  Panel.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Propozisyon Mr Chair se pou use the word ‘exist’, ‘ceasing to exist’ dan plas ‘operate’.  Zis pou met presi parey standar i demande.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mr Chair.  Mwan mon pe tann dan mirmirasyon.  Just want to be clear.  Eski ceasing to exist and ceasing to operate conveys the meaning?  Conveys the same meaning?

Mon pa krwar they convey the same meaning.  So which meaning where you trying to convey when you use cease to operate?  Sa konpannyen i kapab cease to operate be i remain in existence.  But ceasing to exist  i disparet.  So i cease to operate then, i pou annan rikord ki i ti annan, ki i ti la ler ki i ti operate.  So pou osi annan lezot evidential burden ki pou vini avek bann accounts eksetera.

Mr Chair annou solve sa par met ‘to’ annou met ‘upon dissolution ceasing to exist or operate’ i ava kouver tou bann konsern ki nou annan and then we will capture all three.  Thank you Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay nou kontinyen.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Thank you, Mr Chair.  Mr Chair unless the panel has any …?  They’re not ok with this.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Thank you Mr Chair.  Ki petet nou pe diskite osi tou i ki lesansyalite akoz i annan bokou lenstans osi kot en lakonpannyen i kapab cease operation, i zis dormant right?

Ki let’s say ou’n ganny struck off ou dormant me selman apre ou kapab retournen to be reinstated.  Now i pirman kot nou le sa bann rikord i ganny donnen ler ou’n dissolve.  Dissolve i ler ki lakonpannyen in ganny terminen or i annan lezot form parey bann legal arrangement ki pa neseserman bezwen go through prosedir dissolution ki zot cease to exist.

E dan sa lenstans zot bann rikord i ganny passed on to the competent authority which is why petet si nou pou servi cease to operate, operate prezan ou pou kapab war ou pe ganny en ta lenformasyon ki pa neseserman lentansyon pou ou kolekte sa bann lenformasyon.  So petet pou finaliz li ‘’upon dissolution or ceasing to exist’’ would be satisfactory.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Me what, what happens in relation for example to anti-corruption issues?  You, you want that, that sa lenformasyon spesifik for you.  Be ki arive dan lenstans kot ou annan en konpannyen ki cease to operate e lenformasyon i kapab relate to anti-corruption issues?

That why it is better that, better that you as an abundance of caution you cover all three.  But if the international standard say that is what we want then, the intend pou mwan, mannyer mon pe gete se this Act is supposed to assist the Law Enforcement arm, to also do their jobs.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mr Rampal.

 

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Parey nou pe dir si in cease son loperasyon i still annan lobligasyon pou li maintain son prop rikord li ou trouve nou pa, nou pa anvi qualify li ki si ou cease ou loperasyon en lot dimoun ki pou pran responsabilite ou rikord.

It’s only ler ou terminen through en dissolution or ou cease to exist ki now sa lenformasyon a ganny pass on to sa competent authority.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair.  Si bann Lotorite konsernen zot krwar ki ozordi bann stati legal i permet en konpannyen ki’n cease to operate pou submit son rapor i la.  Mr Chair Onorab Andre i annan en konsern.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mersi Mr Chair.  Me Mr Rampal si en konpannyen dizon in ganny anrezistre par mwan, as a legal entity e mon pe al fermen.  Mon pe al fermen mon dir li ok dan 6mwan mon pe fermen i dir mon pass on mon  -donn mwan mon file mon dossier i pe al kot Onorab Pillay konman  en legal entity.  So am I obliged pou mwan still pass on sa lenformasyon avek ou?  Akoz li i annan en lot reprezantan ki pe reprezant li.

Nou bezwen kler lo la akoz letan ou dir cease to exist, mon pe cease to exist, that doesn’t mean that all companies that were with me would not be moving to another company because I’ve notified them that i will be ceasing to exist.  So kekfwa nou pa pe pran an konsiderasyon sa osi.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Mr Rampal.

 

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Onorab.  Si ou pou get lentansyon la, i pe koz ou about sa legal person or legal arrangement annan sa lobligasyon ki si li menm li ki pe cease.  I pa si son resident agent ki pe cease.

Ler li i pe cease prezan lobligasyon parey ou en konpannyen domestik ou pran sa lenformasyon ou pass it on to, dan sa ka koumsa ou pou bezwen pass it on to sa competent Authority pou hold sa lenformasyon.  I pa si non sa sekreter pe cease pou provide ou sa service prezan sa rikord i vin en jeu.  Parey ou pe dir si sekreter then ou annan ou right pou ou bouze pou ou al kot Onorab Pillay me selman, si sa lakonpannyen li menm li ki pe cease, ki ou annan la sa lobligasyon pou ou pass on sa lenformasyon.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair.  So nou pou bouze nou pou al kot.  Vi ki nou’n fini kouver section 8.  So, the next section ki annan en issue avek ki’n ganny raise i section 9 relates to duty to identify.

Lotorite in fini ganny sa bann komanter so mon a go through SIFSA’s proposal i dir ‘to establish clear provisions in the law to that effect the company must not enter any other particulars in the BO register until they have all been collected and confirmed’.

It is therefore suggested to include new section entering particulars to read e la zot in donn en propozisyon.  Panel i kapab fer en komanter lo la without mon having to go through the whole comment.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi, mersi Onorab.  Panel, Mr Rampal.

 

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Lo sa nou reaksyon i ki seksyon 10 i deza fini fer provizyon kler in terms of like mannyer, e rezis i sipoze ganny updated.  E si sa prosedir pa’n ganny swiv napa fason ki, napa lot fason ki rezis pou ganny updated avek any lenformasyon.

E osi annan sa bout osi kot i donn beneficial owners anba seksyon 12 kot rectification, anba seksyon 12 kot rectification of register ki en prose Lakour ki bezwen ganny servi kot i kapab donn abilite pou update lenformasyon.

Me ki nou’n agree osi tou dan Regulation ler i ganny issue nou ava zis donn en pe plis detay in terms in like mannyer rezis i sipoze ganny updated.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair mon annan enn de pti kestyon lo 9, me mon ti anvi zis alert Onorab Pillay ki at the bottom of the page i annan en lot query lo SIFSA lo seksyon 9 ki ou a kapab pran apre.  Mon pwen Mr Speaker se sa (9) (3).  A resident agent may also give notice to any person if he’ problenm la nou, nou pa kapab met ‘he or she’ akoz i kapab the registered agent will be a non-natural person.

So eski nou devret servi ‘it’?  Oubyen eski nou kapab zis go back e dir ‘resident agentagain?  ‘Resident agent may also give written notice to any person, if the registered agent knows or has reasonable grounds’.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes Mr Rampal.

 

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Nou kapab servi resident agent.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair given ki Mr Rampal ti’n reponn premye konsern SIFSA regarding sa ki zot ti’n raise in term of duty to identify.  Zot in raise en second concern which is in relation to the initial entry of the BO register.  E prezan zot pe demande if that is going to be retrospective?  Zot pwen i se ki the first entry in the BO register shall reflect only the individual and its particulars?  Who is the BO at dated of filling of first BO register?

Prezan mon krwar sa ki zot pe, zot pe get across se ki si ou napa sa lenformasyon at that time.  E zot donn legzanp e i annan en third issue ki zot in raise se ki zot dir this section is silent of situations where there is no individual identified as a BO.  Meaning none the individual falls under the BO definition.  It is also silent the situation what to be entered in the BO register, while company has not yet received any feedback from the individual.  And they give examples of UK and Hong Kong which are good examples take care of such cases, UK and Hong Kong Laws introduce special wording to reflect in the BO registers.  So, (a) the companies know or has reasonable cause to believe that there is no registrable person that’s in relation to an identified PSE.

The company knows reasonable cause to believe there is a registrable person in relation to the company but it has not identified the registrable person that’s in relation to unconfirmed particulars.  I annan de lezot legzanp.  So nou annan 3pwen.  So, nou annan second point is on the initial entry and then the third point is in relation to unidentified BO.  Ok?  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Dr Fanny.

 

CEO FSA DR STEVE FANNY

Mr Speaker.  I pou difisil pou nou war an pratik ki mannyer i pou posib pou en konpannyen napa en BO.  E  i en sityasyon kot nou, nou pa pe kapab visualize properly ki mannyer ou pou napa en BO selman ou pe setup en konpannyen.

E mon pa pe tro ganny en konpran.  Mon pou dir e for the benefit of the industry kekfwa, dan kestyon in mal formen, akoz sansan i kapab kre en lot, problenm pou nou dan industry kot en dimoun i a kapab vin demann nou.

Be dir ek ou koumsa be get sa mon mannyer zot pe dir en keksoz konmsa kan Lalwa BO pou corporate service provider i en Lalwa ki la pandan en kantite letan.  So, service provider ti napa en rezon pou li kapab dir be ki mannyer mon, mon donn ou en BO kan mon napa en BO.  Alor mon pa sa kestyon mon krwar nou pa pou kapab, pa pou kapab vin akseptab dan sa konteks.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Dr Fanny.  SS Payet.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair.  Mon, mon anvi zis azoute ki nou pa kapab pran legzanp avek Hong Kong avek UK.  Tou lede Hong Kong ek UK i partially compliant lo BO recommendation 25.

So nou bezwen pran en pe legzanp lo bann lezot pei ki either largely compliant ouswa compliant.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi SS.  Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mersi Mr Chair.   Mr Chair letan nou pe pas dan sa ou konnen mon konman en avoka en dimoun i vin kot mon pou anrezistre en konpannyen, mon demann li lekel ki bann shareholders e i i dir mwan e mon anvoy sa kot Registrar of Company.  Registrar of Company i anrezistre li.

Pa i deza annan sa lenformasyon ki i pe dir mon rode?  Wi mon gard en kopi konman, letan i rann mon sa ki in anrezistre, li i gard en kopi kot li mwan, mon gard en kopi.  So, ki ou pe dir mon zis gard sa dan file.  Si i annan okenn sanzman, dir avek sa dimoun notifye mon oubyen mon tou le lannen sepa tou le 6mwan ou pe dir mon demann li si i annan okenn sanzman pou mwan fer sir mon bann rikord i updated.

Ki mon pe sey dir akoz ou pou bezwen vin kot mon demen e ou pe met sa lofans lo mon kan ou kapab ou al kot Registrar of Companies pou ou ganny sa lenformasyon?  Akoz letan tou le lannen, sa ki mon from BAR Association se ki mon’n gannyen se ki tou le lannen letan en konpannyen i fer son returns i bezwen file si in annan change in ownershipSo, Registrar of Company pou annan sa lenformasyon.  Posibleman avan mwan.  Ki sa entity ki’n anrezistre sa konpannyen.  So, o kontrer mon, mon ti a dir ki nou met sa lobligasyon lo Registrar of Companies pou li anvoy kot mon, dir mwan Mr Andre lakonpannyen ki ou ti anrezistre lannen pase son, in annan en change in ownership, shareholders whatever.

Alors nou pe notifye ou lo sa.  Ou konnen konmsi mon pe sey rode sa modalite ki nou bezwen fer pou nou kapab ganny get it right and not be running around in circles.  I met responsabilite lo en entity ki posibleman li i pa file en return me sa konpannyen ki file return direkteman avek Registrar.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Mon a donn laparol AG apre Mr Rampal.

 

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL MR FRANK ALLY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Mon pa konnen si SIFSA oubyen mon krwar nou pa pe sezi byen sa, sa konsern be from what Onorab Pillay in dir e Onorab Andre.

Mon krwar petet en konfizyon se ki ler i dir napa e from what Dr Fanny in dir se ki ou bezwen annan en endividi ki, ki donn ou lenstriksyon e ki vin the beneficial owner.  Akoz sa target sa Lalwa se go through all the layers pou ou ariv kot sa beneficial owner.

E parey Onorab Andre in dir se ki en dimoun i vin kot ou i dir ou form en konpanny, wi me sa dimoun i kapab pa the beneficial owner.  E anba Companies Act i kler poudir i annan provizyon pou ou al idantifye the beneficial owner, Registrar i kapab fer sa.  Me selman the issue is that you may be the, the person ki the registered owner or the legal owner me ou an menm tan ou the beneficial owner.  So si ou, ou sa endividi ki the registered owner ou osi ou beneficial owner ou, ou met ou non lo rezis and that’s the end of the matter.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi AG.  Mr Rampal.

 

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Zis pou azoute sa ki, pou siport sa ki AG in dir.  Fodre ki nou, nou konpran konteks ki nou sa Lalwa nou pe koz lo la, nou pe koz beneficial owner.  Nou bezwen separ li avek legal owner ki dan konteks Sesel commonly nou konn li konman shareholder of companies or Member of companies right.

En Member of a company en shareholder i vin en konponan dan idantifikasyon of a beneficial owner.  This is by virtue of ki ou non i attached to the share of the company.  

But la dan, dan sa Lalwa nou, nou pe koz beneficial owner ki nou pe met li obligasyon on the resident person to keep sa register.  Ler ou pou regarde dan konteks domestik i pou napa en register of beneficial owner.  They would maintain the particulars of Members in 1972 company me pa beneficial owners of – pa neseserman dan konteks lokal ki tou dimoun ki shareholder, legal owner of companies they would be the beneficial owner of companies as well.

Se pou sa rezon nou’n stress a lot lo la ki sa Lalwa i pa neseserman zis pou offshore.  I pou tou lakonpannyen ki ganny formen isi Sesel or bann laranzman ki ganny formen isi Sesel.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Onorab Andre.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Zis mon pe dir ou konnen ou pe met sa responsabilite lo sa entity mwan, mon krwar osi, ou konnen en keksoz ki’n ganny debat se ou devret donn sa responsabilite osi Registrar of companies.  Akoz ou, ou dir mwan ki poudir dan mon Memorandum oubyen dan mon articles, mon bezwen dir the beneficial owner.

Pou bann konpannyen lokal ki mon pe dir konmsi i fer mon louvraz pli fasil.  Akoz i pou deza dan sa register ki pou laba kot li.  So,  let’s make it simple unless it’s legally impossible pou nou fer li.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Mr Rampal.  AG go ahead.

 

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL MR FRANK ALLY

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mon krwar sa ki, mon pa konnen si i en, i en i annan en konsansis avek Lasanble ek tou bann Manm lo sa ki Onorab Andre in dir, se ki.  Ki Onorab Andre pe dir se ki annou in a nutshell se ki annou annan en register of beneficial owner ki tou bann shareholders ava fer deklarasyon e evantyelman Registrar i a maintain sa register so that.

Me nou mon krwar sa Lalwa sa ki i pe sey dir se ki ou kapab annan, akoz en company ler ou get en menm parey Companies Act i permet ou annan en beneficial owner ek en registered owner.  Akoz i annan sa deriving interest ki ou kapab kree lo en par e oubyen by a way of agreement. 

Me la ou pa deklare sa beneficial owner.  I annan zis sa registered owner ki son non oubyen Member ki son non i aparet dan tou bann dokiman.  E ki me an menm tan Registrar li i pa, i pa hold the register of Members.  Akoz si ou nou pou al fer sa, sa ki Onorab Andre pe dir se ki nou bezwen al sanz tou konsep companies.  Kot prezan Registrar of Companies ki pou kontrol registry of share of Members ki ozordi i pa leka.

So i pou annan en pli gran overhaul of nou Lalwa of nou konsep.  Se sekreter lakonpanni ki which is will be the registered agent ki pou hold the registry, register of Members.  E nou pe osi pas en Lalwa put squarely on the shoulder, met anba responsabilite registered agent and secretary pou li osi hold the beneficial owner register.  Mon krwar nou pou al en pe tro lwen petet unless ki i annan en konsansis.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi AG.  Dr Fanny.

 

CEO FSA DR STEVE FANNY

Well sa ki Onorab Andre pe demande sa enn la mon krwar i en pti pe danzere pou nou dan Financial Services Industry.

Mon a dir zot akoz enn nou’n dir nou, nou pa anvi fer nanryen an plis over and above ki ganny demande by international community.  Ok nou mon krwar i annan en Onorab oparavan in koz lo BO being public, i annan pei i met BO public sepa kwa.  E nou, nou’n dir ki BO public i pa en standar.  Nou’n maintain nou pozisyon ki nou pa pe kit sa nou pa pe donn sa lenformasyon akoz pou le moman nou annan ou en competitive edge kot i pa piblik.

E bann teritwar Angle in dir koumsa zot, zot kapab fer li public 2023Ok la si nou ale nou dir be pran sa lenformasyon BO met li dan en BO register avek Registrar, what happens?  It means that sa lenformasyon now becomes public on domestic company.  Ler sa lenformasyon becomes public on domestic company la aprezan sa boug laba kot OECD i dir mon, Steve ekout en kou la.  Lenformasyon BO i public dan Sesel.  Akoz ou, ou pe kasyet bann international person?  Akoz ou pa kasyet ou bann Seselwa?  La aprezan akoz ou pe vin harmful ek mwan.  Aprezan i dir ek mwan ou konnen what ou pe ring-fenced Steve.  Prezan i vin en problenm pou mwan.

Aprezan i vin en problenm pou mon, i vin en problenm pou bann corporate service provider zot asize la anler tou.  Mon pa anvi sa problenm i vin kot mon laport.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Dr Fanny.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mr Chairman.  All along dan sa de Lalwa in kler, in eksplike poudir Lotorite pe met en onus lo tou dimoun ki deal avek nenport ki kliyan pou li osi fer son travay pou li annan en lobligasyon en accountability.

Nou pa kapab pran nou accountability anvoy li swa lo Registrar swa lo en lot dimoun.  Nou’n ganny, nou’n ganny senk lesplikasyon an tou ler mon’n konte.  AG, Mr Fanny, de fwa Mr Rampal e ankor enn fwa AG lo menm size.

So, swa nou pou propoz en lamannman.  So that we can move forward or we accept sa ki devan nou.  So Onorab Andre mon pa konnen si i le propoz en lamannman.  We will see how where we’ll move from there.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Pillay.

 

HON CLIFFORD ANDRE

Mr Speaker.  Ou konnen tou lede AG avek Dr Fanny sa ki’n eksplike mwan, mon konpran parfetman.  AG in dir poudir ozordi nou Companies Act i permet nou annan registered owner avek beneficial owner.  E Dr Fanny in koz lo offshore companies.  Mwan ki mon pe dir mwan, si Lalwa, e komanter ki’n gannyen sorti kot BAR Association.  Si Lalwa i permet annan sa, akoz prezan ou pran sa responsabilite ou anvoy lo nou bann avoka bann Accountant e si nou, nou pa gard sa en keksoz ki Lalwa i permet.

Si nou, nou pa gard sa register  of bann ki’n vin kot nou, nou, nou pe komet en lofans.  Prezan mon pou ganny fine R50,000mil.  Ok?  So en keksoz ki Lalwa i permet ki mon, mon pe dir si i permet annou permet annou permet Lotorite take care of it so it doesn’t come an offense on me, bann avoka e lezot Entity ki nou pou bezwen war nou, si nou pa pe gard sa nou pou bezwen pey R50,000mil.  Akoz nou pe tir sa responsabilite lo sa ki mon, mon krwar nou kapab fer me nou pe met lo sa bann entity endividyelman.

So sa i mon konsern e konsern ki BAR Association in anvoy kot mon ki mon pe raise as a matter of lendistri ki mon ladan dan de konteks pou nou kapab ganny klarifye lo sa size.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  AG.

 

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL MR FRANK ALLY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Mon krwar nou bezwen alleviate sa fear oubyen sa apreansyon Onorab Andre e menm BAR Association, for that matter ki mon en pti pe petet soke pou tann sa reaksyon sorti kot bann koleg.

Akoz nou bezwen lir definisyon resident agent napa Avoka ladan.  Me selman si sa Avoka li i santi poudir i anvi pran en rol sekreter lakonpanni sa i pran en rol dan son kapasite personnel.  Me pa dan son kapasite anba Legal Practitioners ActSo, mon krwar sa i enportan.  So si ou deside pran en rol ki go beyond ou rol anba Legal Practitioners Act then ou pou bezwen comply avek sa bann obligasyon anba sa Lalwa.  Mon krwar sa i, i unless ki mon’n mank, mon’n mank sa pwen.

Akoz ou bezwen war definisyon resident agent e nou’n e se sa rezon ki nou’n mete an relasyon avek en konpanny enkorpore anba Companies Act se son sekreter.  E son sekreter i parey ki ou fall back dan Companies Act.  Si i en IBC then i pou the registered agent akoz ler ou enkorpor en IBC se ou bezwen donn ou business plan ou bann dokiman sa registered agents e li i pli apt pou li ganny sa lenformasyon.  Mersi Mr Chair.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi AG.  Onorab Pillay.  Petet zis mon ava enform bann Manm poudir nou pa pou break pou dite.  Nou anvi mon krwar zot in fini konpran poudir nou pa pe break.

Ok nou anvi fini sa Bill ki devan nou.  Mersi pou sa.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman lot, lot konsern mon pa konnen si nou annan okenn propozisyon lamannman from the panel avan mon al, mon al lo Seksyon 10 (1).  If there are no, no amendment from the panel then, seksyon 10 i annan en konsern ki’n ganny raise par the Trade.  E mon pe zis konfirmen si napa lezot konsern ki’n vini.  Lo seksyon 10 nou war disclosure of change of BO information.

E SIFSA’s suggestion se ki to include specific provision for such cases.  Kot par egzanp ler beneficial owner i mor e mon krwar i napa currently.  E mon pa konnen si zot annan lamannman pou fer or you feel that the provision is ample enough.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes Mr Rampal.

 

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Lo la si nou go back ankor lo, lo definisyon ler en dimoun in mor osi tou in most cases i pou annan egzekiter ki ganny apwente.  Dan sa lenstans koumsa i pou sa egzekiter.

Me selman ki nou pe dir, tousala i pou ganny defini anba Regulations.  Nou pou met li in terms of identifying a beneficial owner part of pou idantifye lekel sa person ki annan kontrol a sa pwen ki ler en dimoun in mor, i ava ganny enkli dan Regilasyon.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair mon ti annan en lot kestyon lo Clause 10 (1).

E sa se sa fraz ‘the declaration of the beneficial ownership form’ ki pa’n ganny define okenn par.  E mon ti’n fer en propozisyon ki nou sanz sa e nou met ‘a declaration of beneficial ownership in such form as’ eksetera.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Nou konfortab avek sa proposed wording pou sa.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Bon si napa okenn komanter nou ava kontinyen.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Mr Chair lot komanter ki ti’n arise si lezot Manm napa lezot komanter, ti on section 10 (4).  Onorab Georges i annan en komanter.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Yes mersi Mr Chair.  10 (3) avan nou ariv 10 (4).  La osi i annan en pti, en pti drafting issue.

If a relevant change occurs in relation to an individual’ e ‘individual’ pa’n ganny, nou pa konnen lekel ‘the individual’ e nou regarde si it should be ‘to a person’.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Mr Rampal.

 

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Nou pe propoze petet ki nou kapab reste konsistan nou ava servi beneficial owner.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok mersi.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Yes, so if ‘the individual’ is ‘beneficial owner’, lekel ki within 14 days pou donn Notice?  Konmela as it is now it says ‘he shall’ so basically the ‘beneficial owner shall’?  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairmen so we go to 10 (4).  10 (4) the issue was in relation to restriction of property rights.  Concern raise was ‘restricting any participation right example, voting rights or pecuniary rights, for example dividend rights of a Notice addressee who has failed to respond to a notice for disclosure of beneficial ownership are the term use are’, not my terms Mr Chairman mon pe relate.  ‘Draconian measures and constitute an infringement on private property and rights.  Given the controversy surrounding the notion of Restriction notice we should not pursue it again’.  

This is the comment of the trade.  ‘It should be noted that non of the jurisdiction adopted such Draconian restrictions apart from UKIt should also be noted that while UK adopted restrictions, restriction of participations rights it made clear provisions now to handle such a delicate, such  delicate matters by introducing extensive provisions with regards to –

1) Warning Notices to be sent and only then to issue restriction notices and

2) UK also clearly describe effect of Restriction Notice’.  SIFSA suggestion, the Trade suggestion is to remove this Sub-Section entirely.  So over to the panel Mr Chairman.

 

MR SPEAKER

Panel?  AG.

 

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL MR FRANK ALLY

Mr Chair mersi.  Mon pa konnen si petet bann Manm i kapab get war sa provizyon dan konteks pou anpes en lofans ganny komet, parske la sa legal person ouswa sa legal arrangement i pa pe ganny sa lenformasyon enportan pou li.  Setadir i annan en dimoun en registered owner, me selman i bezwen li gard or annan the beneficial owners of sa par oubyen sa lentere.

Now si prezan sa dimoun ki registered owner i anvi pran bann aksyon vizavi sa par me i pe kree ki sa either sa konpanny sa legal person oubyen sa legal entity, legal arrangement oubyen sa register, resident agent i prone pou li komet en lofans.  Alor sa  i anpes li komet sa lofans me i donn sa beneficial owner or sorry sa, sa dimoun li ki aggrieved by sa desizyon pou li sezi Lakour Siprenm.  Me la Lakour  pou petet i pou annan en zistifikasyon poudir, be donn sa konpanny oubyen sa resident agent sa lenformasyon ki enportan e neseser anba BO Act pou li kapab en party to the commission of an offence.

Wi i kapab en pti pe Draconian to some extent me i kapab neseser pou anpes en lofans ganny komet, because otherwise mon i parey en larivyer, mon pou al ek ou mon.  Me ok i pou en defans pou mon dir mon, mon’n demann ou, ou pa’n donn mon me eski prezan monn les en, en lofans ganny komet e sirtou si i annan en anti-money laundering offense ki ganny komet an konsekans.  I don’t know, mon krwar petet bann Manm i dwatet get li dan sa, dan sa loptik,  pou follow the words of Onorab Pillay.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi AG.  Bon Onorab Pillay ou annan serten drwa noter isi dan sa Lasanble pou servi serten lekspresyon.  Bon nou kontinyen si napa okenn komanter.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair i annan en, nou annan en drafting issue lo 10 (4).  E mon’n met li lo board.   Premyerman sa mo ‘concerned’.  ‘Where a relevant change is not disclosed under sub-section 3 the concerned legal person’ mwan, mon’n propoz ‘relevant’ or should we just say ‘the legal person or the legal arrangement as the case may be’.

Which is mon krwar kekfwa i ava meyer –  ‘may take any action if deems appropriate’, e la ti annan en problenm akoz si nou regard li i dir ‘after giving an opportunity of being heard’ after giving, nou bezwen defini lekel who gets the opportunity.  Mon’n met ‘the person’ akoz it’s about the legal person ‘of being heard and giving the findings of the legal person or the legal arrangement in writing’Is that what is intended?  

Oubyen eski i parey mon’n propoze?  Which is ‘and furnishing to the person in writing the decision of the legal person or the legal arrangement as the case may be?  Is that the, akoz mon pa ti kapab mon pa konpran tre byen what the intention of the draft was.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  AG.

 

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL MR FRANK ALLY

Mon krwar ki Mr Onorab Georges i the person aggrieved by the decision of the legal person or the legal arrangement ki bezwen ganny heard.

So, it should be where relevant change is not disclosed under sub-section 3, ‘the legal person or the legal arrangement as the case may be may take any action it deems appropriate after giving an opportunity of being heard to the legal person, the aggrieved person and giving the finding of the legal person or the legal arrangement as the case may be in writing’So, there is an aggrieved person there.  This is who, who requires to be given an opportunity to be heard because, i anvi fer serten aksyon an relasyon avek sa lakonpanni.  Sorry sa legal entity.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Well is it?  Mr Chair sa ki mon pa konpran akoz la se the legal person of the legal arrangement ki pou pran sa desizyon akoz the change has not been disclosed.

And therefore, the legal person or legal arrangement will take action if deems appropriate against the person who is not giving the information.  That’s how i read it.

So, well it is not an aggrieved person it’s actually a, the guy who is not giving the information so it is not aggrieved.  He is actually the one who’s that the root of the problem.

 

MR SPEAKER

AG.

 

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL MR FRANK ALLY

Petet nou dwatet deside ki, ki a ki moman ki i vin aggrieved.  Si i vin aggrieved o moman ki because for the relevant change pou the legal person donn sa dimoun en right to be heard in bezwen fer en request and a decision must have been taken.

Oubyen an applicant, petet it would be good for us to define dan plas, then he becomes an aggrieved person.  Ler ou’n fini pran sa desizyon.  So at the stage  it should be ‘’the registered.’’ Ok.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Ou war Mr Chair.  Si nou regard, the thing the story starts, in 10 (3).  ‘If a relevant change occurs in relation to a beneficial owner the beneficial owner shall give notice to the legal person or the legal arrangement of that’.  So it has to emanate from the beneficial owner.  Beneficial owner i bezwen donn sa avek the legal person of the legal arrangement.

Where the beneficial owner doesn’t do that, that’s when we get to (4) ok.  Then the legal person or the legal arrangement has to take action.  And we take action as they deemed appropriate after the giving the beneficial owner.  I suppose an opportunity of being heard.  Yes.  And then furnishing to the beneficial owner the decision of the legal person or the legal arrangement on the failure basically.  

We are going to withdraw, we are not going to act for you anymore or whatever.  Yes, is that how I read it?  

Ok and if so, so should we then say here beneficial owner?  An opportunity of being heard and furnishing to the beneficial owner.

 

MR SPEAKER

AG eski nou satisfe?  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mon satisfe avek sa ki la Mr Chair.  Mon pa konnen si the panel is satisfied.  We’re here to satisfy you, not us.  E pou reponn AG napa, napa en konsep legal ownerit’s

 

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL MR FRANK ALLY

Mon krwar nou bezwen get (a) kot i koz lo ‘attached to the legal owners interest’, because the legal owner often will be the one voting or signing a transfer.  The beneficial owner is the one who holds the marionette.  So as a result of that unless it should be the beneficial owner or the legal owner as the case may be.  Because it could be that the beneficial owner has passed away.  And this is why there need to have a relevant change to, to replace the beneficial owner.  And it is the legal owner who makes representations to the – for the –  Thank you.

 

MR SPREAKER

Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

In that case I agree Mr Chair we should put where we’ve put beneficial owner here and here in (4).  It should be ‘legal and beneficial’.  Or ‘legal or beneficial’.  Because the one might affect the other.

 

MR SPREAKER

Bon eski nou kapab bouze.  Any other comments?  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Yes, Mr Chair.  Legal owner or beneficial owner the AG had a phrase.  ‘Legal owner or beneficial owner’.  As applicable.  Mersi.  Ok, Mr Chair we can move on.

 

MR SPEAKER

Bon, eski sa i konklir part 2?

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mr Chair pa konklir non, non i reste nou, i reste nou en konsern raised by the BAR Association.  So in the interest of the full transparency.  There’s a mention of in the section 13 read with the Act as a whole.  Ki Bar Association if I’m not mistaken Onorab Georges i ava koriz mon akoz nou pe deal avek Bar Association,  ‘it makes it lawful to provide false information in public registers so as long as the private registers are accurate’.  So, the question which now raising is, are we creating a concept where just the purpose of providing information, false information could be entered into public registers?  So long as we have private registers being kept accurate.  That was their concerns.

 

MR SPEAKER

Panel.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Ok in section 13 read with the Act as a whole.

 

MR SPEAKER

Non Onorab nou ankor lo part 2.  Eski nou’n fini ek part 2 section 10?

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Yes, Mr Chair.  The last section, the last issue on section 10 was restriction of property rights, yes.

 

MR SPEAKER

E nou’n fini avek?

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

E nou’n fini deal avek wi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok, so nou kapab pran en vot lo part 2.  Si napa okenn lamannman ankor lo part 2.  Lo dernyen nou’n fer disclosure section 10.  Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair Onorab Henrie in fer mon rapel ki i pa paret ki nou’n ganny en desizyon lo Section 9 is silent on the initial entry in the BO register.  Was that addressed?  Will it be retrospective, it was addressed?  Ok fine, ok.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok.  So  nou pou pran en vot lo part 2 ki konpri Clause 5 ziska 10 as amended e ki form par dan sa Bill.  Tou Manm ki an faver?  Okenn Manm ki kont?  Madanm Deputy Clerk.

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Chair.  18 Manm in vot an faver.  E personn kont.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Bon savedir part 2 Register of Beneficial Owners in ganny aprouve as amended par Lasanble Nasyonal.  Nou ava kontinyen Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair i annan en komanter ki ti lo nou rapor Bills Committee ki nou ti sirkile.  E sa komanter ti sorti from the BAR Association e zot ti pe dir, in Section 13 ‘read with the Act as a whole making it lawful to provide information in public registers, to provide false information in the public register so long as the private registers are accurate.  

Doesn’t that make the system less transparent?’  So basically si mon konpran byen lanfaz lo Section 13 se ki ou annan FIU to maintain as another Agency the beneficial ownership database.  Me ki nou war nou war 13(6) i fer provizyon pou ki si i annan intentionally furnishing of wrong information.  Sa ki zot pe dir se ki, eski nou pe met lanfaz lo en pti pe mon krwar dan en fason en pti pe fason sarcasm.  Si whether or not sa ki nou pe perpetrate se ki for the purpose of maintaining private registers it’s ok si nou annan lenformasyon ki pa korek in the public registers?

So, mon ti a kontan petet ki panel i weigh in lo section 13 to make sure that it is clear.  These comments were made by the BAR Association.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel, Mr Stephenson.

 

RESIDENT ADVISOR KEVIN STEPHENSON

Thank you Mr Speaker.  I don’t think there was anything, I’m a little bit confused by the comments from the BAR Association  in the sense that as I read the Act as a whole i don’t see anywhere where it says they were making it lawful to provide false information first, first stop.  And I think if you look at 13 (6) that  there is the penalty for intentionally furnishing wrong information to the such database.  

So I don’t know how to further elaborate on that but i don’t think that’s every the intent now.  I think there was a actual that the Financial Intelligence Unit would not be responsible because there is not a verification process as it relates to that.  So maybe that’s what there relating to.  But I can’t expand on that because there is six and there is no provision that promotes providing false information to the FIU or the database.

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Yes Mr Chair.  This goes back to the debate to what we were having earlier about the legal person or registered agent whoever that is populating that database for their own purpose.  

If you look at (5) ‘the accuracy of the information being uploaded on the beneficial ownership database shall be on the legal person or the legal arrangement, as the case may be’.  So, when there are changes and what not is the legal person that will have it on their database.  

But what they are saying is that if you really consistently with the Act.  They are not sure that is what is being promoted.  Whereas the public database which is the one which being held by the, by the entities will have the same information.  So, one will not be correct at the time and one will be correct.  So perhaps you need to clarify this.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Pillay.  Dr Fanny.

 

CEO FSA DR STEVE FANNY

Mr Speaker  sa largiman i vin en pe difisil pou ou kapab fer si mon registered agent oubyen mon en avoka ki’n pran an fonksyon registered agent aprezan mon pe maintain, konmsi aprezan i annan en sanzman lo en beneficial owner oubyen i annan bann sanzman ki pe donn mwan en lobligasyon anba en Lalwa pou mwan report.

Be ler mon fer sa sanzman pou mon anvoy let’s say kot FIU oubyen kot bann lezot Lotorite prezan sa sanzman i accurate me si i annan en lezot landrwa kot mon bezwen fer sa sanzman pou reflekte, pou mwan reflekte sa sanzman mon bezwen fer tou lede an menm tan.

Fer konmsi Mr X mon a met li Mr X9 in vin en nouvo shareholder mon’n anvoy sa kot FIU mon dir Mr X in vin nouvo shareholder.  Me aprezan si ti annan, assuming mon ti bezwen fer sa lenformasyon piblik, mon pou bezwen al kot the Public Registrar pou dir Mr X in vin sa nouvo shareholder.  Aprezan kote pou vin en problenm kot ou poudir be lenformasyon avek FIU pou korek be lenformasyon avek Registrar pa pou korek.

Dan sel rezon ki ou ki sa i a kapab arive aprezan dimoun pou kapab kestyonn ou konpetans oubyen ou ki’n fail.  Ou konpran mwan?

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Dr Fanny.  AG.

 

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL MR FRANK ALLY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Mon krwar osi nou dwatet pa lose sight of the word intentional.  So parey sa ki Dr fanny in dir si ou, sa lenformasyon ki, mon krwar i plis avek en lenformasyon detay register ki en ki legal person or entity, a legal arrangement pe hold e sa lenformasyon ki li i pas to the dan database i pa korek, then la i vin en lofans.  Which is normal.  Because ou pa kapab annan withhold lenformasyon ki enportan e neseser e ki database avek sa ki ou annan i pa konsistan.

Me si ou pe fer li entansyonnelman then i vin en lofans.  Be si i annan en fot.  I annan en diferans letan ouswa i annan serten sanzman ki’n arive me ki ou pa’n pran kont par egzanp ouswa ki enn ou staff by, by oversight i pa’n fer antre e an rezilta sa in en inconsistency between what is in the database and what is in the actual register that you keep.  

Then it’s ok you, you’re not commit an offense.  But when you  the purpose is to defeat then it will be an offense, then it is ok.  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi AG.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Wi mersi Mr Chair.  The passion avek the fervour ki AG in defans son case  i admirab me selman  the point is it’s not just about the offense the point is at the time of the information being uploaded to, say the, the legal entity who has a case may be.  Let’s say mon ki annan sa lenformasyon, at the time ki FIU ti annan son register ki mon annan mon lenformasyon.

Mon lenformasyon i korek e pou e lenformasyon FUI i false sa ki bezwen annan se i bezwen annan en, en klarite.  Mwan pou mwan i kler, me in relation to that, that has to be explained out there.  Parey AG taler mon napa okenn copyright lo sa ki, lo sa ki pe ganny dir mon pe relate.  Me sa ki enportan ladan se ki i bezwen kler.  Dek konman mon ganny sa lenformasyon ki mon fer avek?  You see that’s, that’s the issue.

Kan ki ou ganny li?  Ou, ou ganny li simultaneously ki mon, mon gannyen?  That’s the question which was being raise earlier.  And how do you make that happen?

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Si nou go to disclosure of changes anba seksyon 10 nou pou war ki klerman i annan en prosedir of mannyer sanzman i sipoze ganny fer pou beneficial owners.  Parey nou ti pe diskite taler i annan sa form ki pou bezwen ganny ranpli e pandan 14 zour sa i ganny submitted to ou the legal person.  E legal person li i annan sa responsabilite within 14 days as well pou li anvoy sa kot son resident agent in Seychelles.

E resident agent par rapor to osi i en, i en reporting entity i bezwen fer serten CDD due diligence lo lenformasyon ki in gannyen li osi tou i ganny donnen en peryod letan of 14 zour pou li fer le neseser.  So ler ou pou gete cumulatively i pou annan li 28, 28 (eskize) i fer li 42 zour an total.  So i annan en, en lag of 42 zour an total pou.

Kan in annan en sanzman of beneficial owner by sa beneficial owner li menm e sa pwen ki sa database i ganny updated by kot FIUSo dan sa peryod letan i, i only normal ki nou konnen i en letan ki nou’n donnen pou sa prosedir kapab arive ziska ler sa database i ganny updated.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi, mersi Mr Chair.  Mon krwar i kler.  So, we will move to the last, to the last item ki nou annan, e sa it’s in relation to the Appeals Board.  And this is a comment from the trade.  Be avan sa mon war SS ou pe lev lanmen, i annan keksoz?  Thank you.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Sorry Mr Chair.  Mr Chair avan ki nou al lo 15.  Mon annan (3) pti keksoz mon annan 2 pti keksoz lo 13.   And … question drafting thing.  Eski nou gard, nou fek fer enn taler, such as may be oubyen par egzanp dan 3 ek 4 lo board.

Procedure for uploading shall be such as may be specified’ or shall we just say ‘shall be specified’.  I have no dog in the fight zot dir mon lekel ki zot pli kontan.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

‘Shall be specified’.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi.  Secondly nou’n redraft 13 (6) akoz mannyer ti ete it was a bit unwieldy.  Nou anvi zis fer sir ki nou draft is what you want to say.  

‘That a resident agent who or which’ because it might be a legal person, ‘intentionally furnishes wrong information to the beneficial ownership database relating to a legal person or a legal arrangement commits an offense and the resident agent, who or which furnished the information will be liable’ etcetera.  Is that what you wanted to say?  Mersi Mr Chair mon annan zis en pwen me i vin apre 15 so

 

MR SPEAKER

Onorab John Hoareau.

 

HON JOHN HOAREAU

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Mon ti annan zis en, en pwen pou fer resorti 14 (3) ki mon krwar poudir i en lofans ase enportan dan sa punitive Clause mon krwar petet osi nou, nou kapab azoute ki license sa resident agent i ganny forfeited akoz si, si an ka en resident agent  pe entansyonnelman donn fo lenformasyon i parey mon ti dir taler i unfit for the purpose.

So, mon pe sizere ki nou osi add ki son license i ganny forfeited.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab.  Panel? Dr Fanny.

 

CEO FSA DR STEVE FANNY  

Baze lo Mr Speaker sa provizyon ki Onorab i anvi anmennen wi nou konpran gravite sa sityasyon ki nou kapab fer, nou bezwen fer li la dan sa Act nou kapab met li anba the CSP Act.  Ki i spesifik.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok mersi Dr Fanny.  AG.

 

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL MR FRANK ALLY

Petet zis pou donn en pe plis lesplikasyon lo sa ki Dr Fanny in dir e pou Onorab Hoareau.  Akoz ki arive en registered agent, pa tou registered agent ki licensed.

Par egzanp en sekreter lakonpanni i pa licensed li until nou fer li en license activity oubyen sa partner i napa en license to be the registered agent.  So, the registered agent i zis en fiksyon ki nou’n kree pou kapab, pou kree en lobligasyon me i pa licensable.  So i pa en licensed activity.  Evantyelman if we licensed it then sa propozisyon  i perfect.  So, then ou pou kapab si ou ganny convicted of the offense then ou license i kapab ganny revoked.  Mersi.  Me parey Dr Fanny in dir sa i pou en lofans, vi ki ou pou fer en lofans anba BO Act si ou en registered agent.

En registered agent anba ICSP Act then i pou give cause for your license may be to question your status and to i kapab en threat to your license.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi AG.  Onorab Pillay.  SS.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair.  Zis lo kote 13 (4), akoz propozisyon pou nou retir Second Schedule, so otomatikman the First Schedule will become Second Schedule.  So zis pou nou koriz 13 (4) dan plas Third nou met Second.

 

MR SPEAKER

Dakor.  Onorab Georges.  Ok Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Yes, Mr Chair dernyen.  The last comment ki mon annan is regard to the appeals process.  E konsern ki the Trade pe raise se ki anba Section 61 of the Anti-Money Laundering Countering and Financing of Terrorism Act i fer provizyon pou annan en Appeals Board me zot konsern ki zot pe dir, se ki i pa fer kler the appeals procedure.

Alors zot ti ava, zot ti ava anvi ki i annan referans to Section 62 of the AML Bill ki li i fer provizyon for the appeals procedure.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Panel.  Mr Rampal.

 

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Mersi Mr Chair.  Lo la nou, nou an lagreman avek sa proposal to cross reference it with the Seksyon 62 ki kree sa Appeals Board e osi tou i donn anba 63 i donn, i donn prosedir osi tou lo how  to lodge an appeal.  To be more precise sorry i Seksyon 61 ki formulate the Appeals Board apre 62 ki detail out bann prosedir pou appeals.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Mr Rampal.  Onorab Pillay.

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mon krwar Onorab Georges in fini mete.  So, nou by the Supreme Court and the procedure in Section 62 of the AML Act should apply to appeals under this Act.

Mon krwar that’s what you want to say?  Ok.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok panel i aksepte?  Yes, Mr Rampal.

 

DIRECTOR FIU RICHARD RAMPAL

Wi nou, nou konfortab ek propozisyon.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok dakor.  Onorab Pillay

 

HON SEBASTIEN PILLAY

Mersi Mr Chairman.  Be nou’n, nou’n vin a lafen bann propozisyon e sanzman ki zot annan pou fer lo bann komanter ki’n ganny anvoye kot Bills Committee.

Prezan mon krwar i annan serten lezot pti sanzman mon pa krwar tro gran ki Onorab Georges e mon war SS Payet in lev son lanmen ankor ki zot pe propoze.  Mersi Mr Chairman.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi.  SS Payet.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair.  Pou mon i lo Miscellaneous Provizyon.

 

MR SPEAKER

Annou fini avek part 3 avan apre, Onorab Georges i annan okenn keksoz ankor lo part 3.

Non nou kapab pran en vot alor lo part 3 as amended.  Ki konpri Clause 11 ziska 16 e ki form par sa Bill.  Tou Manm ki an faver?  Okenn Manm ki kont?  Madanm Deputy Clerk.

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Chair.  23 Manm in vot an faver.  E personn kont.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Madanm Deputy Clerk.  Savedir Part 3 in ganny approve par Lasanble Nasyonal.  Bon nou ava al lo part 4.  Miscellaneous Provision.  SS Payet.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Nou annan 3 lamannman Mr Chair lo la.  Premye i sa provizyon tranzisyonnel ki Seksyon 18 parey mon’n mansyonnen yesterday.  Letan nou pe diskite nou ti war ki effectiveness anba FATF nou pou konmans montre li an Septanm 2021.

Me sepandan letan nou’n war avek OECD akoz nou pou demann en supplementary review by early next year, so nou pou bezwen montre progre anba exchange of information se pou kwa nou pe demann pou amend le 30 Septanm 2021 pou vin le 01 Zanvye 2021.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok dakor.  Okenn komanter?

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Apre 2enm provizyon parey nou’n diskite.  The First Schedule.

 

MR SPEAKER

Yes.  Le 01 Zanvye i byen.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Dezyenm lamannman se under the First Schedule,  part (a) ki nou’n met en Second Part, legal arrangement.  So nou pou pran sa provizyon nou pou met li anba legal person ki part (c) anba sa.

Parey nou’n diskite pli boner.  Apre 3enm lamannman se pou delete Second Schedule e otomatikman Third Schedule pou vin Second Schedule.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok SS.

 

SS PATRICK PAYET

Mr Chair.  Zis kekfwa mon’n ganny en pe klarifikasyon avek bann teknisyen.  Ki zot in dir mon ki dan AML nou’n met the 31st of January.  So nou bezwen konsistan avek dan plas le 1 Zanvye nou fer li the 31st of January.  Zis pou nou konsistan avek AML.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Ok dakor.  Okenn komanter from the floor?  Okenn lezot komanter panel?

Non, si non nou ava pran en vot lo part 4 Miscellaneous Provisions.  Clause 17, 18 e ki konpri osi tou bann Schedules as amended i form par sa Bill nou ava pran en vot.  Tou Manm ki an faver?  Okenn Manm ki kont?  Madanm Deputy Clerk.

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Chair.  23 Manm in vot an faver.  E personn kont.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Madam Deputy Clerk.  Savedir part 4 in ganny aprouve par Lasanble Nasyonal.  Bon nou pou rekonstitye nou dan Committee of the Whole House pou nou fer lezot prosedir.

Mon ava demann Serge pou move mace.  Nou’n ariv a lafen nou travay nou deliberasyon lo sa Bill.  E mon ava demann en Mosyon pou Third Reading.

 

HON CHARLES DE COMMARMOND

Thank you, Mr Speaker Sir.  Mr Speaker anba Order 71 (1) nou Standing Order mon le move ki Beneficial Ownership Bill, 2020 as amended i ganny lir en Trwazyenm Fwa.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab De Commarmond.  Okenn Manm ki segonde.  Yes Onorab Valmont.

 

HON JUDE VALMONT

Mosyon in seconded Speaker.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Onorab Valmont.  Mon kapab ganny en show of hands pou Mosyon for Third Reading.  Tou Manm ki an faver?  Okenn Manm ki kont?  Madanm Deputy Clerk.

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Speaker.  23 Manm in vot an faver.  E personn kont.  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Madanm Deputy Clerk.  Eski nou kapab ganny en Formal Third Reading.

 

MADAM DEPUTY CLERK

Mersi Mr Speaker.  ‘This Act may be sighted as the Beneficial Ownership Act 2020 and shall come in operation on such date as the Minister may by notice in the Gazette appoint and different dates may be appointed for a different provisions for the Act’.  Mersi Mr Speaker.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Madanm Deputy Clerk. Savedir Beneficiary Ownership Bill, 2020 in ganny aprouve par Lasanble Nasyonal.  Bon nou ariv lafen nou travay.  Me mon ti a kontan remersye Minis Maurice Loustau-Lalanne avek son lekip.

E lo panel nou annan SS Payet, Attorney General Mr Frank Ally, Dr Fanny, Mr Rampal, Mr Stephenson.  E byensir nou annan Gouverner Labank Santral ki’n avek nou sa 3 zour Ms Caroline Abel, Mr Rao, CEO Anti-Corruption Commission Ms De Silva, Mrs Wendy Pierre Registrar General, Ms Tania Potter ki’n avek nou sa 3 zour konman Legal Advisor.  Lo kote FSA nou annan Mr Randolph Samson, Mr Paul Robert, Mrs  Valerie Ah-Weng.  Ankor Ministry of Finance Ms Odile Vidot, Anti-Corruption Commission Miss May-Paule Rabat, Central Bank of Seychelles Mr Naadir Hassan, Mrs Audrey Pothin, Mrs Sharon Uranie.

FIU Mrs Debra Port-Louis, Ms Sandra Hall, Ms Judith Louis.  E byensir SIFSA nou annan Ms Ina Laporte, Mrs  Marie-France Marie e Ms Natalia Mishicheva.  Mon ti a kontan remersye zot tou Minis avek ou bann teknisyen e byensir tou lezot dimoun osi tou ki’n ed nou, ed bann Manm Lasanble pour nou kapab fer sa travay pandan sa 3 zour.  E mon ti a kontan osi tou remersye osi spesyalman bann Manm Bills Committee.

Spesyalman Onorab Georges, Onorab Sebastien Pillay pou sa travay ki zot in fer pour gid Lasanble dan, dan sa deba.  Mon ti a kontan osi tou remersi tou bann dimoun ki’n a lekout e ki pe swiv.  Nou konnen poudir ki pa toultan enteresan pou swiv bann deba parey, i plito bann term legal ki nou pe deal avek.  Bann term ki pa familye avek bann, avek nou popilasyon me nou bezwen fer sa.  Mon ti a kontan osi tou remersi SBC ki’n fleksib osi avek nou sa detrwa zour.  E zis avan nou adjourn mon a donn laparol Onorab Georges.

 

HON BERNARD GEORGES

Mersi Mr Chair.  Mr Chair mersi pou ou zoli parol.

Eski  mon kapab atraver ou demann bann Manm Bills Committee pou reste deryer apre ki nou rise ozordi akoz nou bezwen plan nou travay ki reste pou fer?  Mersi.

 

MR SPEAKER

Wi, mersi Onorab Georges.  Petet osi i remind mon ki semenn prosen nou, nou pe pran, nou pe kontinyen avek Code Civil e ankor nou pou fer li 3 zour.  Nou pe dedye 3 zour me si nou fini dan 2 zour i pli bon menm.

Mardi, Merkredi e Zedi.  E Mardi osi tou nou pe selebre Commonwealth Day nou pou konmans Lasanble avek mesaz ki nou pou lir from the Chair mesaz Larenn, e nou pou annan en pti seremoni osi tou deor dan Commonwealth Garden.  Apre sa nou pou son semenn answit nou pou annan bann Consequential Bills ki pour vin devan nou ki pou baze lo sa de Bill ki nou’n fer sa semenn.  I annan bann lamannman respektif ki pou vini e nou pou dedye ankor sa semenn avek bann Bills e ankor nou ava regarde.  Nou pou dedye 3 zour me si nou kapab fini li dan 2 zour we will do it.  Ok mon krwar that’s about itBills committee alor zot pou bezwen reste deryer.  Onorab Georges oule zot dan Committee Room 3 oubyen reste isi menm?  Isi menm dan Chamber ler nou fini.

Bon ankor enn fwa mon dir Minis mersi avek ou delegasyon e tou bann Manm mersi.  Minis mon a donn ou en dernyen pti parol, go ahead.

 

MINISTER MAURICE LOUSTAU-LALANNE

Mersi Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker i pa ti pou normal pou mon exit sa Lasanble san mwan osi donn en mo remersiman.  Tou dabor ou menm, akoz mon santi ki ou’n konpran sa dele letan ki nou annan pou pas sa bann Bill e ou’n akord nou 3 zour e nou vreman enn nou satisfe e de nou rekonesan.

Be parey ou’n dir sa mwan nou kalandriye Lezislatif i ase sarze so, zot pou malerezman war nou ankor.  Parey ou’n eksplike kekfwa pa semenn prosen me son semenn apre e ankor.  So, mon ti a kontan remersye zot tou pou zot kolaborasyon.

Mon krwar nou’n ganny en bon deba e nou’n ganny en rezilta ki nou tou nou ti pe ekspekte.  Fotespere nou ganny menm sipor e zot kolaborasyon pandan sa mwan ki pe vini.  Mersi bokou Mr Speaker.

 

MR SPEAKER

Mersi Minister.  Bon mon krwar travay pa fini la i annan sirtou Onorab Georges ek AG ki pou fer en bon pe travay pou prepar pou netway sa de Bill.  Fer sir bann lamannman osi tou i antre kot fodre e tou zafer i ok pou.  Nou pe swete ki Vandredi Prezidan i a kapab sinyen.  I a kapab assent to.  So nou travay i fini la pou ozordi.  Lasanble i adjourn e nou repran travay Mardi le 10 Mars 9er bomaten.

 

 

(ADJOURNMENT)